410 vs 556 for home defense

[Jdougg92]

I've come across two options for a new firearm and I am going to apply them as a back up home defense weapon. One is a lever action shotgun chambered in .410 and the other is an AR15 pistol.
My questions are: is the .410 severely under powered compared to the 12gauge, is 223 or 556 as powerful out of a shorter barrel, can upper and lowers be exchanged between AR rifles and Pistols legally without paper work, and is it as accurate without the stock or with an arm brace?

[kilimanjaro]

Yes, the 410 is underpowered compared to the 12 guage. At six feet, using slugs, it's still lethal, and lethal is lethal.

[coyotewsm]

First its kinda hard to prepare a scatter gun to a rifled projectile two totally different cats.

With the .410 I don't think its the lack of power as much as it is the lack lead contained in the shell. My opinion. Would be its a lot less effective than a 12 gauge.

223 will not be as powerfull out of a pistol as it would a rifle. Not sure what uppers and lowers are.

Hope this helps.

[4V50 Gary]

Three rounds of 00 buck from a .410 isn't the same as nine rounds or twelve rounds of 00 buck from a 12 GA. Mind you, can the person using the shotgun wield it effectively?

Frankly, I'd rather have an AR platform. For home invasions, there's no guarantees that you're face with just one opponent. Home invasions have been done with teams of three of more.

[SHR970]

410 lever action: you are limited to 2 1/2" shells. Either use slugs or 4 pellet 000 Buck shells for HD. With the 4 pellet buck loads, you are essentially 1/2 of a 12 gauge. Still 4 36 cal holes at a time will change someones attitude real fast. Slower to cycle new rounds and follow up vs. AR.

Short barrel 223.: Especially if you are talking pistol AR we are talking REAL loud (as in instantly painful) in the confines of a house. Muzzle flash in low light becomes a real concern. Stand in the next lane at an indoor range when one is going off to see what I am talking about. Switching uppers between rifles and pistols can land you in a heap of trouble if your pistol upper on the rifle makes it under the NFA length and you don't have the paperwork for the set up.

And yes the 223 will lose a fair amount of power out of a short pistol barrel. Enough to matter in the big scheme of things? Probably not..that's what follow up shots are for.

[idek]

If you can use 3" shells, there are .410 loads with five 000 balls that would be nothing to sneeze at. They don't pattern as well as 12ga 00, but at in-home distances, it likely wouldn't matter much. ETA: based on the post before me, apparently lever-guns can't do 3"?

That said, the two options you give are very different. A long, manually operated gun with limited capacity and slow reloads vs. a short, auto-loading gun with high capacity and fast reloads.

This is brought up often, and I'll do it again as a basic means of seeing how a short barrel will perform.
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html

[Skans]

Given the two choices, 5.56.

[jmr40]

I'd keep looking and pass on both

[T. O'Heir]

Either .223 or 5.56 give excessive penetration. Even out of a short barreled rifle or handgun(with the blinding muzzle flash and blast SHR970 speaks of).
If you're limited to a lever .410, slug then buck shot for ammo. Slug will still be a bit over penetrating though. You MUST practice with whatever you end up with.
Rossi makes that daft .410 Judge revolving lever action toy that'll take 3" ammo. Marlins are 2.5" only.

[2damnold4this]

Either .223 or 5.56 give excessive penetration.

Why would you think a .223/5.56 would have excessive penetration compared to slugs or buckshot?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

My questions are: is the .410 severely under powered compared to the 12gauge

A .410 throws the same size pellets as a 12ga at the same speed; but a lot fewer of them. A .410 slug is going to weigh less and be smaller in diameter than a 12ga.

is 223 or 556 as powerful out of a shorter barrel

No, although as long as you have at least a 10.5" barrel, and use quality ammo, the differences are not going to be dramatic at household ranges (<10m). The short barrels are going to be blasty though.

can upper and lowers be exchanged between AR rifles and Pistols legally without paper work

You can put a rifle upper on a pistol; but you cannot legally put any upper with a barrel less than 16" on a rifle without the appropriate paperwork.

and is it as accurate without the stock or with an arm brace?

A red dot goes a long way towards making AR pistols practical. Without that, used as a pistol, I'd say they are at a serious disadvantage compared to a normal pistol or rifle. There are some techniques for stabilizing an AR pistol with a sling that are useful also; but require some training.

[Cheapshooter]

I'd keep looking and pass on both

Best advise yet!

[Snyper]

Quote:
I'd keep looking and pass on both

Best advise yet!

What they said

[FireForged]

They make buckshot in 410 for a reason. it works

[jmr40]

Either .223 or 5.56 give excessive penetration.

These rounds, even with FMJ ammo will have the less penetration in building material than slugs or buckshot as well as virtually all handgun ammo. It is the safest option if over penetration is a concern.

They make buckshot in 410 for a reason. it works

A sharp stick works too, doesn't make it a good option.

[Snyper]

They make buckshot in 410 for a reason. it works

They make it because there's a demand for it.
That doesn't mean it's really good for much

[mavracer]

I'd keep looking and pass on both

+3 there are much better options

[Cheapshooter]

They make buckshot in 410 for a reason. it works

And they call it 410 because it's 4/10 as good as 12 ga.

[Loronzo]

Out of those two I would keep looking myself. There is a lot to be said about 12 guage pump shotguns and a HD role. If I was limited to only the two options you listed I would go for the AR pistol out of the two, although it would not be my ideal choice. Good 12 guage pumps can be had for a few hundred and will last a lifetime if maintained properly.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

Either .223 or 5.56 give excessive penetration.

Not with proper ammo. With proper defensive ammo, a .223 rifle is one of the best choices if you want to limit over-penetration.

This has been discussed here many times before: A self-defense .223 load will penetrate through walls a LOT less than any defensive handgun or shotgun load. Handgun bullets and buckshot just don't have enough velocity to fragment in walls, whereas .223 hollow- and soft-points usually start fragmenting immediately. In most tests I've seen (and the ones I've done myself), buckshot and handgun JHPs will zip through many interior walls, whereas the .223 round will make it to the second wall in pieces and rarely penetrate through the third.

There are several reasons why the FBI and police around the country are ditching shotguns and pistol-caliber carbines and going to .223 rifles, and one of those reasons is the lower chance of over-penetration when loaded with JHPs and SPs.

Now, out of a really short pistol barrel that will be different; the round will have a low enough velocity that you might not get enough of the fragmention that limits penetration. For that reason I wouldn't use a .223 barrel shorter than 10.3" for home defense.

[Derbel McDillet]

My wife's home defense gun is an 18" bbl Taurus Circuit Judge .410 revolver shotgun. It's loaded with 2 3/4" 4 pellet Federal Premium Personal Defense 000 buckshot. The pellets achieve adequate (12+ inches) penetration. It's a good load for home defense.

[Panfisher]

I have made similar comments before but while neither of those would be my choice, if it is thats available, and the shooter is capable with it, it would be a nightmare for a bad guy to come face to face with an awake home owner so armed.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Either gun would work if you know how to use it.

The OP probably should consider competent training as more important than such an unusual choice.

[Buzzard Bait]

Well you may be the one left standing but firing a sort barreled 5.56 indoors may send you looking for a hearing aid
bb

[FITASC]

Yes, the 410 is underpowered compared to the 12 guage.

Not really - as has been stated, the same pellets at the same velocity will act the same. The 410 will have fewer pellets, but the power factor is the same. The 223 will penetrate walls less than buckshot and most handgun rounds.

Use whatever YOU feel confident and capable of using over anything any internet "expert' says. Plenty of folks have been killed over the years with everything from .22 to 50 BMG.