Elevator

[David Armstrong]

So, remember: Curl into a ball, back to the corner.

Recognizing and acknowledging your initial response was specifically for the original scenario, would the same action be appropriate in the BG has knife out and is threatening me scene?
Just out of curiosity, do you think the BG will just stand back and let you back into a corner, drop down, curl up, and grab a weapon? And what is your response if as you are trying to back, drop, curl and draw he closes on you and is already inside your guard?

[Samurai]

David,

The answer to your question is, "Yes." With a slight modification, your goal with your non-weapon hand is to block (perhaps, take a cut from) the bad guy's knife. Provided the cut is limited to your non-weapon hand, this is a "peripheral injury" which can be treated at a hospital later. (Again, survival, not "staying pretty.") With your non-weapon hand, just grab at the knife, and try to get it under control, even for a moment. With your weapon hand, draw.

After that, fall backwards on the floor, shooting upwards. This will give you the distance you need from your attacker, and it will minimize the target area you present to your attacker for knife striking. You want to fall backwards, AWAY from your attacker, and you want to keep the gun pulled in close to your chest (your hara, if you're into the whole "eastern-thing").

I know. Like I said before, this sounds REALLY crazy. But, try it with a friend (unloaded guns only for partners practice). You'll find that it works pretty well! The damage the bad guy will do to you (and, yes, he WILL do some damage) will be limited to non life-threatening areas, and you will be able to empty your weapon into his center of mass.

(One word of warning: If you try to fall backwards in a cramped elevator, WATCH YOUR HEAD! Think about just sitting down, and pushing backwards. Don't just fall and let your head hit the floor/walls!)

[Groundhog]

Oh to be a fly on the wall when the elevator door opens on a crowded floor in the middle of that practice, hehehe...

[Tanzer]

If he wants your life, chances are you’re already dead or dying. Just how much reaction time do you think you will have in the confines of the typical elevator? Remember in the scenario offered the BG has already pulled the knife/ knucks and is a big guy. Do you think that trying to quickdraw and shoot him is a particularly good option at this point?

Yes it is. Respectfully, David (I've always respected your opnions) I'm not going down without a fight. Just as someone you have mortally wounded can continue to fight, the reverse holds true also. Yes, he has the upper hand, but it ain't over 'till it's over. If I can get to the trigger, he's getting all the lead I can deliver.
The confines of the elevator means reaction time sucks, but that's not a reason to just hope for the best. I'd do anything to surprise him, including screaming like a girl, a head butt (normally a bad idea, but desperate times call for drastic measures), stomping on his foot, Telling him I have 10K in my car's trunk, asking him if he likes horses, whatever comes to mind, but trying to drop his guard. Anything to drop his guard. Maybe it won't work, but I'm going to try.
I left out martial arts because I wanted to focus primarily on a really bad situation where you need to pull a rabbit out of a hat, but I don't see doing nothing as a viable option.

[Hardtarget]

To be caught in this situation would be "a raw deal"...but don't just lay down and die! Remember...we're not sheep. If I'm going to die, I HOPE its like a man!

Mark.

The thing that would really be bad...what if your wife or child is with you?

[threegun]

Another time buying defensive position against a knife attack (especially in a confined area) is to get down on your back and use your legs. They are much longer, your feet usually have shoes to protect against cuts, and they can deliver a stiff blow from distance. This allows the bulk of your vitals to remain protected by the floor, walls, and of course your legs.

Pray you don't use an ankle holster LOL.

Draw and fire ASAP.

[Samurai]

Excellent point, treegun. Legs are longer than arms, so you can get more distance from your attacker by pushing off with your feet.

Only one thing to remember: After the fight is over, and you've brought down your assailant, you eventually want to walk to the nearest hospital and get your cuts treated. If you extend your legs upward, toward your attacker, while you shoot, you may "shoot yourself in the foot," no pun intended. By comparison, if you can use your non-weapon arm to push off the attacker, and you shoot yourself in the non-weapon hand, then you keep your legs in tact for eventual flight.

This is a decision that is fact-specific to the particular elevator you are in. Is it a place where people will soon find you? Can you count on others to call an ambulance? Or, are you all alone? Are you going to need to walk out of there?

Important questions to weigh...

[newerguy]

You are in say, an elevator or similar situation where flight is not an option, at least for a minute or so. A true BG pulls a knife or brass knuckles etc (the situation if he gets the jump on you with a gun is too obvious). You have your weapon, but no cuffs, because you are not a LEO. You are the only two there, and he's big enough that even if you subdue him, you can't just sit on him, and you're not a blackbelt, or too long in the tooth to use twenty year old training (I hate to be so narrow, but I don't want to leave it open to things like; hook kick, roundhouse, then full Nelson).

I think this is another example of a case where some people believe a gun is their first, last, and best tool for self-defense, and other don't. I propose that, under the circumstances described here: 1) you and one other guy in an elevator; 2) he's got an edged or impact weapon drawn; 3) he's decided to attack you and not just rob you; and 4) you are armed with a concealed handgun, that you handgun is not you best choice due to the distances involved. You aren't going to be able to draw fast enough and you are going to be at risk of being disarmed. BTW, while the OP states that the response to a similar situation where the bad guy is armed with a handgun is "obvious", I'm not sure that it is. I'm going to stick with the same answer as for a knife, you've got to get your hands on him.

Dropping to the ground and kicking at him might buy enough time for the elevator door to open, and you might hope that he's runs, or there is someone there to scare him off. Otherwise, you need to either drop him, or get control of his weapon hand. Depending on the circumstances, you might be able to fend off their attack while drawing and shooting, but I'd be a little reluctant to try that, because it's hard to really get control of someones arm with one hand, and if your draw takes to long they'll kill you anyway. Get him on the ground, kick away the weapon, if he's holding it, stomp on his hand or wrist, and keep fighting until the door opens, then bolt, then call 911. If you can keep control of the guy on the ground, then yell for help as soon as the door opens.

An armed encounter in a confined space, like an elevator is a real bad situation. Hand to hand fighting with a guy whose armed opens you up to getting hurt badly if you are in real fear of you life, you have to fight your way out, understanding that being cut, disfigured or disabled is better than being dead. Look at number three (3) in my summary of the case. I'm still of the mind that it's better to get robbed of some case and credit cards than to be killed, stabed, or arrested for killing a robber. A lot of times cooperating is the best stratagy.

[Tanzer]

Thanks for the hearty discussion. Admittedly, I've shifted gears as the thread matured. I want to make it clear that I originally put so many restrictions on the scenario because I've seen so many go off topic. I am honestly very interested in learning about this TYPE of situation. It's really quite okay to change bits & pieces for argument's sake. I just didn't want to go off on tangents like "well, if all I had was my mousegun..." I think you get the gist. Major Issues - Confined quarters, obvious and capable threat, good reason to believe you will be harmed, no help coming for at least a minute. I confined it to gun use because Tactics & Training is a gun forum. I think I got a lot of what I wanted; good discourse from knowlegeable folks instead of wiseguy armchair know it alls (the ones I have in mind didn't respond) telling me that I should have known better than to be on the elevator.
Thank you for reasonble conversation.

I hope it goes further. I however, am closing down the boat and heading for my 42 acre getaway in Maine. I'll check in once in a while from my "neighbor's" house half a mile away, but for the most part, I'll be off 'till September. I keep it computer-free as a last bastion of a lifestyle forgotten.
Man, I am bringing SO much ammo ...

[JoeBlackSpade]

Must be nice....


Enjoy the fresh clean air, and the SILENCE!

I'm going to do a little romping around in Wekiva park here in Florida myself this weekend. No ammo, though, as its a wildlife preserve.

[Groundhog]

Rough life you got there Tanzer!

For you guys that know how to defend against the knife attack in this situation, I have a question. Given that two possible defensive positions have been discussed. One using arms and the other legs. Which one would you be less likely to be stuck in an artery that could cause you to bleed out fast should the BG knife you in one of your limbs? I'd like to think that should you get cut in your forearm that it would be easier to stop the bleeding if you were by yourself but I'm only guessing.

[threegun]

For starters unarmed knife defense is very very bad if the bad guy knows anything about knife fighting. The little bit of knowledge I have will leave almost anyone cut and the untrained cut real bad. Each slash designed to eliminate the use of body parts, disembowel, or sever major arteries. I don't even want to think about fighting bare handed against a trained knife fighter gives me the hebegebies.

If you use your legs to defend you must be aware of the femoral artery. It runs along the inside of your leg. If severed death comes within minutes.

If I had a weapon to bring to bare and just needed time (behind in the reactionary curve but bad guy wants me dead so no chance of compliance) I would use my legs and shoot from my back........no question. The legs can take alot of cuts without serious damage. They can and will keep distance for you. If the bad guy screws up and eats a thrust from a leg it will help you win. Bottom line is while he hacks at your feet and lower legs you draw and fire. A mistake with your weak hand standing and he gets your vitals.

[JoeBlackSpade]

A fight goes down blazing fast, and a knife fight even faster.

Bare knuckle to bare knuckle fighters are going to square off for a moment, after which, one side may charge in swinging.

With a knife, there's often less hesitation because of the confidence that holding a weapon instills. A knife fighter with skills is truly dangerous at close range. Anyone facing you with a knife should be ASSUMED to have this kind of skill.

I don't see the extremely close distances involved allowing anything but an immediate reflex response resembling a palm-heel strike to buy you about 2 feet to fire.

The position of crouching down on the ground may or may not be practical, and may interfere with drawing. To draw and THEN drop down might be difficult.

When training, I want to teach (and learn!) techniques that are based on the natural reaction that you are going to have. From there, I prefer to build on those tendencies and refine them. That is the reason the techniques I've posted are as they are. They have also been USED by law enforcement. Some of the techniques that I'll be posting in other threads were taught to me by FBI HRT in Virginia, and in Maryland.

In any case, neither your arms OR your legs will protect you for very long against a trained knife fighter. A trained knife fighter will use the knife to sever ligaments, rendering your muscles USELESS.

I also taught knife fighting to Marines. If I am using a knife to disable someone, I'm using the "ice pick" grip (blade down, running outward and along my forearm), and my opponent's arms will be incapacitated, with one strike each. The third strike will be a downwards thrust into the torso, somewhere between the neck and clavicle.

That means if you are facing a guy like me in an elevator, you've got one free strike to your weak-side arm. The second strike will render you completely unable to draw.

When I adopt- or teach a technique to engage an armed opponent, I imagine what will stop a TRAINED fighter.

Anything less is a waste of time. An untrained fighter, hacking and slashing your free hand will hurt you severely, but you should be able to sacrifice it, while you draw and fire. A trained fighter will be much more efficient, using less strikes- but each one more effective. A trained fighter will get INSIDE, where he can kill. This is why I recommend getting SPACE, with a quick powerful palm heel, and then drawing like your life depends on it (no pun intended).

[threegun]

Joe, I don't like the icepick grip. It makes me have to get closer to my opponent to slash. My technique is front hand holds knife. Knife is straight out thumb on top, four fingers on bottom. Rear or weak hand is up in cover mode. Legs are ready if needed to stop a rush (side or front kick or movement). Then proceed to slash value targets as often as available. Never ever give up on a target simply because it isn't a tendon or artery. Slash everything that gets close and keep your distance. As long as you keep making cuts without getting locked up you are winning.

My bare knuckle technique is run like heck LOL. My real knife fighting technique is run like Ben Johnson LOL. Getting to old for fighting. Heck getting to old for running. Thank God for Gaston Glock.

[JoeBlackSpade]

Threegun, you have a sort of modified Bowie stance.

Anything with a strong range and a heavy blade can be held that way.

Something like a survival-sized knife/ k-bar, or even a standard bayonet, however, isn't going to have enough kinetic energy to inflict damage on an opponent using his arms to block you. Slashing strikes will eventually disable someone, but not as quickly.

The ice-pick sacrifices range- true. It makes up for that in penetration power- something neglected by many trainers. When I trained Marines, I was training them for specific things, including silent removal of an enemy sentry/guard, where the lungs or heart had to be punctured- and the sentry may have been wearing multiple layers of clothing. If the heart was penetrated, the target would die almost immediately. If the lungs were penetrated, the target would not be able to generate any vocal alarm/alert, since the air pressure build up in the lungs would be expelled through the wound, rendering them unable to generate enough force to vibrate the vocal chords.

It probably sounds grotesque, I know, but war is hell on earth.

In any case, I don't teach knife fighting to civilians, and I only draw on that knowledge for the purpose of DEFENSE against knife attacks.

[Samurai]

Ahh, EXCELLENT! Joe's a Marine instructor!!! Joe: Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to get together this weekend with a friend, and try the "drop to the ground" technique against your icepick-grip training. Pick a partner who is "reasonably capable" at drawing (NOT someone that you would be grossly under-matched against). Start at arms-length, relaxed stance.

YOUR JOB is to come at him with a training knife, using your Marine Corps. trained techniques.
YOUR PARTNER'S JOB is to use his non-weapon hand to ENGAGE your knife (keep the knife at distance; it doesn't matter if he gets cut on the hand) WHILE he draws with his weapon hand. THEN, AFTER DRAWING, your partner will perform a backwards combat fall with his pistol in a high-ready position (close to the chest, as discussed above). Your partner will squeeze off as many trigger pulls as he can, before you can get to his torso with the knife (stop at 8 trigger pulls).

WHAT I WANT TO KNOW:

1. Could the guy get his gun out before you made it to the torso?
2. Could the guy get any shots off before you made it to the torso?
3. Did he get off all 8 shots?
4. Were you able to get in a cut to the radial artery on the non-weapon hand? How about the weapon hand?

Try this, and let us know how it works.

[JoeBlackSpade]

Samurai, I'm going to try it out this weekend with my father, this guy:

http://www.grandmasterswingchun.com/drnelson.htm


To be clear, I am already familiar with this technique (or a variation of it). It involves falling backwards, into a defensive shooting posture like you describe. Everything you are saying I agree with, concerning the validity of this technique.

My concern, however, is its reliable application in an elevator (or bathroom stall, other confined space). I already know for a fact that a similar technique, a controlled fall backwards- in a fairly open space- can work as an EXCELLENT position to shoot from in survival mode.

[David Armstrong]

TANZER: Respectfully, David (I've always respected your opnions) I'm not going down without a fight.
---SNIP---
but I don't see doing nothing as a viable option.

Fair enough, and I’m not suggesting one should go down without a fight. I’m suggesting that one avoid getting into a fight. I don’t consider that “doing nothing”, BTW. My philosophy is that your mind is your best weapon, and if you can use your mind to figure out the response that does the least damage to you and your resources ordinarily that is what you should do. Trying to pull your gun and challenge him is the most likely response to increase the danger for you, IMO. In the huge majority of incidents unless the BG starts things out by significantly harming you, you will not be significantly harmed if you go along with them and don’t challenge/fight with them. I realize that does not address the second element of your scenario where you have vanquished the foe, but IME most folks won’t be able to make it to that stage.

NEWERGUY: I'm still of the mind that it's better to get robbed of some case and credit cards than to be killed, stabed, or arrested for killing a robber. A lot of times cooperating is the best stratagy.

Exactly. If this is a robbery the BG wants your stuff, not you. If the BG wants you, in this space you'll probably never see it coming until after it's done.

SAMURAI: I know. Like I said before, this sounds REALLY crazy.

Not really, and that is why I was hoping you would do some follow-up. What you are advocating is very similar to a technique we taught at the police academy for some circumstances.

[nbk2000]

What if, instead of the mugger being in the car with you, he's waiting for you to come out of it...after his crimey unloaded a CS/OC fogger into the car as the doors were closing.

Figure 15 seconds minimum before you could get off at the very next floor (the one he's waiting on) after breathing a highly concentrated dosage of CS/OC.

Or he could unload as he's walking out of the elevator he was on with you, blocking the door from closing with a dropped briefcase or such.

I don't think Gun-Fu is going to help you very much.

The whole idea of preparing for someone mugging you on an elevator seems rather paranoid (though it has happened) as how often are you in an elevator, for what duration of time, and how much more likely are you to be killed by a mechanical failure of the elevator itself than by any muggers lying in wait therein?

Think of the situation from the criminals POV.

He's trying to get your money. So he puts himself in a tight space with you, not knowing if you're armed, and with no possibility of escape for him, and with the potential for an unknown number of witnesses to intrude in upon the crime by the simple act of pushing an elevator call button.

Doesn't sound very smart to me.

Now, if he (or his crimey) had control of the elevator...you'd be in some serious cow biscuits, as they could simply pull you down into the basement.

Or what about the fire-safety override that brings all cars down to ground level? No stops.

Point being, if someone puts enough thought into doing the job, you're done for and no amount of elevator Gun-Fu is going to save you.

Developing a strong set of general skills will serve a person much better than trying to develop a highly specialized skill (anti-elevator-mugger-Fu) that you're very likely to never need.

The only exception I can see to this would be if you're an elevator operator (are there still any left?) who's job entails a 40 hour week in an elevator.