1911 Trouble - Smith Help

hube1236 · November 1, 2002, 06:00 AM

I have a SF Trophy Match I bought used. It is a very accurate pistol. Sometimes, regardless of magazine [although it is more pronounced with a certain few] during the extraction of the last round- matters not it was full loaded or only one- the casing gets pulled and jammed into the feed lips of the magazine and the slide at the muzzle side of the ejection port. This causes it to rotate upwards and jam between the mag and the slide.

My friend thinks (but admits he is frequently wrong) that the slide stop is stopping the slide on the way back not allowing the ejector to fully do its job. I don't know.

Any suggestions

zanthope · November 1, 2002, 09:36 AM

I'm not a smith by any means, but I do know that these 1911's are finicky when it comes to mags, where it sounds like your problem lies.

My New SA Mil-Spec has troubles with the last round on a GI mag I bought at a gun show - so that mag is put aside for range duty. I bought a Chip McCormick Shooting Star 8-rounder ($12) that has been perfect so far....so well, in fact that I ordered some more. The Metalform mag that came with the gun has been perfect, too - it just looks a little ratty.

Experiment a little...most mags aren't very expensive. Some folks think the Wilsons are the best. They run from twenty dollars on up.

CastleBravo · November 1, 2002, 09:41 AM

hube,

That doesn't sound mag related to me. Not many pistolsmiths hang out here, you would be better off posting your question to pistolsmith.com or 1911forum.com's gunsmithing section.

mcole · November 1, 2002, 03:31 PM

my quess is the extractor. will it hold a cartridge "snug" against the breech face? go to the 1911 forum and then 1911 org. excellent articles on extractor and its tension. mcole

James K · November 1, 2002, 09:30 PM

One quick test is to CAREFULLY, in a safe area, load one round in the magazine, feed it into the chamber, then remove the magazine. Then retract the slide slowly. If the round falls down through the mag well, you have your answer. The extractor should have enough tension to hold a live (or dummy) round.

Extractors have been one of the major problems on 1911 type clones. They are not well made and often lose tension. But ones made right, out of the best spring steel, are expensive. Most buyers, having a choice between good and cheap, will choose cheap; the makers want to sell guns, so they put out what the market demands.

Jim

Navy joe · November 2, 2002, 12:38 AM

I third extractor tension. It shows up on the last round because there is not another round in the mag for the empty case to bounce up and out off of. Pull your extractor and re-bend it a little. Put the backside of the hook down on a hard surface, hold it at about 45-60 deg. off the table with your index finger at the rear of it and push in on the center with your thumb. While you're at it clean the extractor bore, make sure the hook isn't damaged and order a new Wilson extractor.

SPEC4M · November 2, 2002, 01:56 AM

I agree with the others that the extractor might be the problem. Go to the 1911.com forum youll find in th smithy threads on how to check your extractor and how to tune it if its not ok. My problem of stove pipe was cured by replacing the 16lb spring with a wolfe 18.5lb.

Jim V · November 2, 2002, 07:59 AM

SIGHT'S M1911
M1911.ORG
1911 FORUM
PISTOLSMITH

If you need the links.

11xray · November 5, 2002, 05:46 AM

Consult Kunhausen, tune your extractor and enjoy.

James K · November 6, 2002, 10:54 PM

Hi, 11xray,

Trouble is that some of the clone extractors are cast or MIM and just won't "tune". In fact, there are reports that trying has resulted in them breaking. 1911 type extractors should be made of the best spring steel, but that is expensive. So far, that approach has sold pistols and, AFAIK, not gotten anyone killed since the 1911 clones are sold mostly as toys.

Jim

yankytrash · November 7, 2002, 09:04 AM

Jim, wouldn't you think a match gun's extractor would be tunable?

Tune it like Navyjoe said, but I don't take it completely out of the gun. I pull it out of the hole about half to 5/8 out the way out, give'r a bend or two, and push it back in. If it's difficult to push in, you went too far. It should push in snug, but shouldn't be removable without a little prying help from a screwdriver.

To test if the hook is wore out, do the test like Jim suggested. I usually remove the slide to do the test so I can shake it around a little, but Jim's test sounds easier and faster.

James K · November 7, 2002, 10:03 PM

If all the maker's other extractors are made from compressed chewing gum wrappers, it is doubtful if a special extractor will be used for his "match" guns.

Jim

C.R.Sam · November 7, 2002, 10:52 PM

Sadly...
Even if some makers did put decent extractors in the "Match" guns; would be the wrong end of the line.

More likely the bottom end gun that is depended on for defense, and that is the one that needs to be reliable, not the high end toys.

Sam

James K · November 10, 2002, 12:31 AM

Good point, Sam.

I think the 1911 type makers (except Colt?) believe that they are turning out big boys' toys because, basically, they are. I know some serious pistol carriers who are allowed to choose their guns, and darn few carry a 1911 type (SIG, H&K and Glock rate high). One who does carries a Remington-Rand made in 1944.

I keep using the phrase "serious carry" and get some flames. So maybe I'll run this by you.

Most of the folks who carry guns (I assume legally) and who are not police officers are very unlikely to ever need the gun. They carry because they like guns, get some level of comfort from having one, but not because they are really afraid. They are not what I call serious carriers. Some civilians, in rough areas, or in some circumstances, are much more likely to be attacked, and I do rate them as serious carriers. (Some of these guys check their cars for bombs before getting in; that is what I mean by serious.)

The difference is like that between keeping a fire extinguisher in the car, just in case, and becoming a professional firefighter. Or between having a gun in the nightstand and guarding Kharzai.

I'll bet those guns made up for the Marines don't have MIM parts.

Jim

sm · November 11, 2002, 04:07 PM

Jim Kennan &CR Sam,
I agree with the extractor assessment. Many times in CHL, security guard, training, or just teaching new shooters, we see what you guys are referring to.

I really wish more people would try before they buy. Learn about what really works versus what the magazine cover, or some agency uses. Also learn the nuances of the weapon. Students get a real eye opener when my buddy shoots a wheel gun. Or I should an old Mil-Spec ("omg, c&l, weird steel gun) and subject it to rain, mud and the like. Somtimes its too late, they have traded that old model 10,19 in on an "gun of the month", that won't run.

IMO worn finishes and runs beats high dollar, tight and pretty that won't. Simple is good.

Jim V · November 11, 2002, 06:42 PM

Well, one thing is for sure, there were or are no MIM parts in any of the various Norinco "Models of the 1911A1" I've had a chance to inspect.

Ironbarr · November 24, 2002, 07:31 PM

I got rid of half my stovepipes when I learned about limpwrist control... the other half when a smith cleaned up the extractor hook.

Remove mag, rack slide to clear potential round. Remove the slide, insert a spent casing under the hook and rattle it around. If it holds, after removing the spent casing, insert a live round under the hook and rattle it around, upside down and whatever. Remember you can shake anything loose if you work at it - expect it to detach if you snap it like a whip or something, okay?

Somewhere along the line inspect the fit of the hook on the casing, ensure there's enough metal holding the casing (mine had to be stoned a bit).

If it holds, check limp wrist. If slide doesn't come all the way back, or is slowed down some, the forward thrust can be diminished. Stripping a round from a tensioned mag takes a bit of energy.

Like any machine with moving parts, timing is important. I see Sight's M1911 http://www.sightm1911.com/ has a new look - you might take a check if you haven't been there lately.

$.02, For What It's Worth.

-Andy

Wildalaska · November 27, 2002, 01:37 PM

The problem here is extractor related. Have a competant smith install a C&S extractor, labor should be no more than $50.

November 1, 2002, 06:00 AM	#1
hube1236 Registration in progress Join Date: April 28, 2000 Location: New Orleans, USA Posts: 785	1911 Trouble - Smith Help I have a SF Trophy Match I bought used. It is a very accurate pistol. Sometimes, regardless of magazine [although it is more pronounced with a certain few] during the extraction of the last round- matters not it was full loaded or only one- the casing gets pulled and jammed into the feed lips of the magazine and the slide at the muzzle side of the ejection port. This causes it to rotate upwards and jam between the mag and the slide. My friend thinks (but admits he is frequently wrong) that the slide stop is stopping the slide on the way back not allowing the ejector to fully do its job. I don't know. Any suggestions __________________ Violent behavior is an expression of failure. It always takes more brains, resourcefulness, and heroism to make peace than war.

November 1, 2002, 09:36 AM	#2
zanthope Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 258	I'm not a smith by any means, but I do know that these 1911's are finicky when it comes to mags, where it sounds like your problem lies. My New SA Mil-Spec has troubles with the last round on a GI mag I bought at a gun show - so that mag is put aside for range duty. I bought a Chip McCormick Shooting Star 8-rounder ($12) that has been perfect so far....so well, in fact that I ordered some more. The Metalform mag that came with the gun has been perfect, too - it just looks a little ratty. Experiment a little...most mags aren't very expensive. Some folks think the Wilsons are the best. They run from twenty dollars on up. __________________ We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then it gets worse.

November 2, 2002, 12:38 AM	#6
Navy joe Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2001 Location: VA, USA Posts: 1,804	I third extractor tension. It shows up on the last round because there is not another round in the mag for the empty case to bounce up and out off of. Pull your extractor and re-bend it a little. Put the backside of the hook down on a hard surface, hold it at about 45-60 deg. off the table with your index finger at the rear of it and push in on the center with your thumb. While you're at it clean the extractor bore, make sure the hook isn't damaged and order a new Wilson extractor. __________________ FY47012

November 2, 2002, 07:59 AM	#8
Jim V Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 1999 Location: SE Michigan - USA Posts: 4,038	SIGHT'S M1911 M1911.ORG 1911 FORUM PISTOLSMITH If you need the links. __________________ *MOLON LABE* If it ain't metal, single stack & single action, it ain't a 1911 no matter what it looks like. 1911 Forum THE TUBBY CURMUDGEON

November 5, 2002, 05:46 AM	#9
11xray Member Join Date: February 3, 2000 Posts: 83	Consult Kunhausen, tune your extractor and enjoy. __________________ Audemus jura nostra defendere

November 1, 2002, 09:41 AM	#3
CastleBravo Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 1999 Posts: 2,144	hube, That doesn't sound mag related to me. Not many pistolsmiths hang out here, you would be better off posting your question to pistolsmith.com or 1911forum.com's gunsmithing section.

November 1, 2002, 03:31 PM	#4
mcole Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2002 Posts: 102	my quess is the extractor. will it hold a cartridge "snug" against the breech face? go to the 1911 forum and then 1911 org. excellent articles on extractor and its tension. mcole

November 1, 2002, 09:30 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	One quick test is to CAREFULLY, in a safe area, load one round in the magazine, feed it into the chamber, then remove the magazine. Then retract the slide slowly. If the round falls down through the mag well, you have your answer. The extractor should have enough tension to hold a live (or dummy) round. Extractors have been one of the major problems on 1911 type clones. They are not well made and often lose tension. But ones made right, out of the best spring steel, are expensive. Most buyers, having a choice between good and cheap, will choose cheap; the makers want to sell guns, so they put out what the market demands. Jim

November 2, 2002, 01:56 AM	#7
SPEC4M Junior Member Join Date: February 27, 2000 Posts: 6	I agree with the others that the extractor might be the problem. Go to the 1911.com forum youll find in th smithy threads on how to check your extractor and how to tune it if its not ok. My problem of stove pipe was cured by replacing the 16lb spring with a wolfe 18.5lb.

November 6, 2002, 10:54 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, 11xray, Trouble is that some of the clone extractors are cast or MIM and just won't "tune". In fact, there are reports that trying has resulted in them breaking. 1911 type extractors should be made of the best spring steel, but that is expensive. So far, that approach has sold pistols and, AFAIK, not gotten anyone killed since the 1911 clones are sold mostly as toys. Jim

November 7, 2002, 09:04 AM	#11
yankytrash Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2001 Location: Farnham, Va Posts: 2,183	Jim, wouldn't you think a match gun's extractor would be tunable? Tune it like Navyjoe said, but I don't take it completely out of the gun. I pull it out of the hole about half to 5/8 out the way out, give'r a bend or two, and push it back in. If it's difficult to push in, you went too far. It should push in snug, but shouldn't be removable without a little prying help from a screwdriver. To test if the hook is wore out, do the test like Jim suggested. I usually remove the slide to do the test so I can shake it around a little, but Jim's test sounds easier and faster. __________________ Right turn, Clyde.

November 7, 2002, 10:03 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	If all the maker's other extractors are made from compressed chewing gum wrappers, it is doubtful if a special extractor will be used for his "match" guns. Jim

November 7, 2002, 10:52 PM	#13
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Sadly... Even if some makers did put decent extractors in the "Match" guns; would be the wrong end of the line. More likely the bottom end gun that is depended on for defense, and that is the one that needs to be reliable, not the high end toys. Sam

November 10, 2002, 12:31 AM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Good point, Sam. I think the 1911 type makers (except Colt?) believe that they are turning out big boys' toys because, basically, they are. I know some serious pistol carriers who are allowed to choose their guns, and darn few carry a 1911 type (SIG, H&K and Glock rate high). One who does carries a Remington-Rand made in 1944. I keep using the phrase "serious carry" and get some flames. So maybe I'll run this by you. Most of the folks who carry guns (I assume legally) and who are not police officers are very unlikely to ever need the gun. They carry because they like guns, get some level of comfort from having one, but not because they are really afraid. They are not what I call serious carriers. Some civilians, in rough areas, or in some circumstances, are much more likely to be attacked, and I do rate them as serious carriers. (Some of these guys check their cars for bombs before getting in; that is what I mean by serious.) The difference is like that between keeping a fire extinguisher in the car, just in case, and becoming a professional firefighter. Or between having a gun in the nightstand and guarding Kharzai. I'll bet those guns made up for the Marines don't have MIM parts. Jim

November 11, 2002, 04:07 PM	#15
sm Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2002 Posts: 1,819	Jim Kennan &CR Sam, I agree with the extractor assessment. Many times in CHL, security guard, training, or just teaching new shooters, we see what you guys are referring to. I really wish more people would try before they buy. Learn about what really works versus what the magazine cover, or some agency uses. Also learn the nuances of the weapon. Students get a real eye opener when my buddy shoots a wheel gun. Or I should an old Mil-Spec ("omg, c&l, weird steel gun) and subject it to rain, mud and the like. Somtimes its too late, they have traded that old model 10,19 in on an "gun of the month", that won't run. IMO worn finishes and runs beats high dollar, tight and pretty that won't. Simple is good. __________________ Use Enough Gun TFL Alumni

November 11, 2002, 06:42 PM	#16
Jim V Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 1999 Location: SE Michigan - USA Posts: 4,038	Well, one thing is for sure, there were or are no MIM parts in any of the various Norinco "Models of the 1911A1" I've had a chance to inspect. __________________ *MOLON LABE* If it ain't metal, single stack & single action, it ain't a 1911 no matter what it looks like. 1911 Forum THE TUBBY CURMUDGEON

November 24, 2002, 07:31 PM	#17
Ironbarr Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2000 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,188	I got rid of half my stovepipes when I learned about limpwrist control... the other half when a smith cleaned up the extractor hook. Remove mag, rack slide to clear potential round. Remove the slide, insert a spent casing under the hook and rattle it around. If it holds, after removing the spent casing, insert a live round under the hook and rattle it around, upside down and whatever. Remember you can shake anything loose if you work at it - expect it to detach if you snap it like a whip or something, okay? Somewhere along the line inspect the fit of the hook on the casing, ensure there's enough metal holding the casing (mine had to be stoned a bit). If it holds, check limp wrist. If slide doesn't come all the way back, or is slowed down some, the forward thrust can be diminished. Stripping a round from a tensioned mag takes a bit of energy. Like any machine with moving parts, timing is important. I see Sight's M1911 http://www.sightm1911.com/ has a new look - you might take a check if you haven't been there lately. $.02, For What It's Worth. -Andy __________________ -AndyB FWTV - For Whatever The Value ...When seconds count, most help is just minutes away.

November 27, 2002, 01:37 PM	#18
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	The problem here is extractor related. Have a competant smith install a C&S extractor, labor should be no more than $50.