controversial 9mm discussion.

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by g. whilikers

On the other hand, lots of folks have been cleaning barrels with jacket bullets, after a day of shooting lead.

I think it's more accurate to say they "think" they are cleaning the barrel this way. I used to do it in one of my .357 revolvers back in the 80's, until I ran a brush through one day and noticed all these dark patches appearing. What was happening was the jacketed bullet and cleaning patches were burnishing the lead into the bore and leaving the surface smooth and indistinguishable from steel at the shallow angle of incidence of a light coming from the other end of the barrel. But the brush would scuff the smoothed lead surface enough to give it a clearly visible matte surface. If I'd had a borescope back then, I'd have seen the lead right away by its color difference without that scuffing, but I didn't yet have one then.

So, think of the lead as very hard and viscous grease in the bore. With some loads at some pressures, some of it is pushed out, but mostly the gradual angle of the bullet ogive just runs over top of it, ironing it out and spreading it forward and burnishing it into bore surface. That raises pressure and the portion the bullet rides over has the same effect as passing a bullet through a constriction. For lead bullets that's an accuracy reduction. Whether it becomes dangerous or not depends how much there is an how hot the loads are that you are shooting.

Today there's no reason to hassle with the leading problem. Sharpshoot'R makes a good product called Wipe-Out NO-LEAD that actually reacts with lead, turning it into a sort of crumbly black compound that patches right out.

If you want to keep trying to shoot lead out, I'd suggest getting a friend with a lathe to cut the ogives off some jacketed bullets and then cutting angled inward to form a chisel edge in the jacket at full bore diameter. Having a shallow bullet nose radius plow into the lead pretty much guarantees overriding it and burnishing at least part of it in.

[tahunua001]

The OP is in Idaho - this isn't some Florida deer the size of your black lab, this is most likely mule deer - they can easily go over 350-450 pounds and have a neck over 12" thick.

Carbine or not, it isn't the wisest thing to do - but if he insists, he should be looking at a minimum 147 grain and NOT a HP

wow really? I've lived in the northwest all my life and I have never seen a 450 pound mule deer. 450 is approaching the size of elk and if you really believe that any north american deer get that large then I suggest you take a few road trips before scheduling a hunt up here. mule deer, though larger bodied than whitetail rarely ever reach 300 pounds and even a 12 inch thick neck is less than the penetration a 9mm is capable of especially since all a person needs it to get half way through. your assumption is also false that I would be hunting mule deer in the first place. I don't bother with mule deer. I only get one deer a year and I'm not wasting it on a prairie mule deer when there are pea/wheat fed whitetails thick as flees out there. also just for clarification, the largest bucks I can expect are 250 pounds.

I don't hunt with a 9mm rifle nor do I own one thus I have no suggestions for you. I probably would not use one but I will fight for your right to use one.

and I thank you for that.

[WESHOOT2]

Piggies with the 9?

Most highly recommend the Hornady 147g FMJ-FP ONLY.
New sized case, CCI500, chrono-mapping with 3N37 or Power Pistol.

[JohnKSa]

On the other hand, lots of folks have been cleaning barrels with jacket bullets, after a day of shooting lead.
Including me, back when I was a regular at the action matches.
Most everyone else did, too.
During a single season of matches, this must have happened literally thousands of times, and I never saw a single mishap due to it.

It obviously depends on a lot of things, probably the main one being how much the gun is actually leading the bore in the first place.

If it's not leading much, then there's not enough to act as a partial obstruction and you get away with the practice.

It's one of those things that a lot of people get away with, but some people don't. And while you hear the practice recommended in informal settings, there are definitely formal warnings against it.

For example, Beretta states in their pistol owner's manuals the following:

"DO NOT ever shoot cartridges with jacketed bullets through a barrel previous fired with lead bullets before the bore is thoroughly deleaded."

The emphasis is theirs.

I'll throw this in because I think a lot of people get the wrong idea about topics like this.

Let me take a different topic and give it the same treatment.

Person A: I usually keep my finger on the trigger all the time because it makes me faster on the target and that's important in self-defense.

Person B: It's safer if you keep your finger off the trigger until you actually are on target.

Person C: I used to shoot with a bunch of guys who always put their finger on the trigger as soon as they cleared leather and in the thousand times we did it, I never saw anyone shoot himself accidentally.

Ok, here's another one:

Person A: I usually run my reloads over book max to get every last little bit of velocity I can.

Person B: Those maximum loads are calculated to insure safety in a wide variety of circumstances including wide temperature ranges and differences in tolerances between various firearms. Going over max can be dangerous.

Person C: I load over max, and I have a lot of friends who load over max too and none of them have ever blown up a gun.

In the same way that ignoring basic firearm safety or going over max loads CAN lead to a catastrophic incident but is not GUARANTEED to result in a problem in every instance, ignoring warnings like the one about following lead bullets with jacketed rounds CAN lead to a catastrophic incident but is not GUARANTEED to cause a problem every time it's done.

We're all here to "discuss and advance responsible firearms ownership", and that includes warning people about potentially dangerous practices when appropriate.

That doesn't mean that we believe that every time someone loads beyond the maximum book load, or puts their finger on the trigger, or follows lead bullets with jacketed rounds, that there's going to be a catastrophe, it's that we understand that those things are potentially dangerous, and as informed and responsible firearms owners, we pass that information along to others.

[Ruger45LC]

Use the right powder and you're sure to get some good velocities from a 9mm carbine. As it's been said, deer aren't some hard to kill mythical creature that many make them out to be, a 9mm from a handgun will work so from a carbine there should be no issues.

I no longer load for the 9mm, but when I did I remember trying Unique, Longshot, Power Pistol and 3N38. 3N38 with 147 XTP lists close to 1200 fps but I couldn't get it because 6.9gr makes seating the bullet to the proper OAL a chore and will warp the bullet. However from a 4" G19 it averaged around 1100 fps, which is fast for a 147gr 9mm.

Longshot and Power Pistol (and 800x too) would hover around 1100 fps as well, except from the longer 5.3" barrel.

For 124gr, Blue Dot and Unique both were doing 1330-1335 fps from a 5.3" barrel.

If you want to use a hollow point, I'd opt for either the Hornady XTP or Speer Gold Dot. Another good option is hardcast for the 147gr, in this case I know the 147gr hardcast from Missouri bullets works very well and they're fairly cheap, especially compared to jacketed.

[schmellba99]

I would personally choose the Hornady XTP.

This (and i agree with everything else Brian said).

Even northern or Southeastern deer, which are large by white tail standards, aren't all that big - and their ribcage is much less substantial than that on a human.

If a 9mm will penetrate a gulf coast Texas hog, which is significantly more substantial in mass, fat content, hide thickness and bone density than a deer, then it will do just fine with even a large white tail.

And if you'll hunt with an arrow, then you really should not be saying much about the use of any firearm (pistol or rifle) outside of a .22 or .25 ACP. Besides, a 9mm is generally more powerful than a .357 (moreso when fired from a carbine) and for some reason it's usually accepted that a .357 is sufficient for medium game hunting out of a revolver platform.

Either a good HP like the Hornady or as others have suggested with a hard cast lead in a truncated cone (which will still provide for some expansion, but better penetration) and you should have no problems - provided you fully understand the limitations of the round and your capabilities and stay within those limitations (and it sounds like you do).

I'm interested to find out the results of this in a field trial.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by schmellba99

Besides, a 9mm is generally more powerful than a .357 (moreso when fired from a carbine) and for some reason it's usually accepted that a .357 is sufficient for medium game hunting out of a revolver platform.

As much as I hate to disagree with a guy who's agreeing with me...

You'd be hard pressed to find 9mm ammo that's hotter than 357mag.

Check out Ballistics By The Inch.

5" barrel, "real world" guns, 124gr 9mm +P runs an average of about 1,275, regular 124gr runs about 1,200-1,250. 16" barrel, 9mm same rounds run 1,430 and around 1,300.

357mag, 5" real world gun, runs about 1,400+ and even over 1,400 in a 4" gun with the WEAKEST stuff running about 1,333 in the 5" but even that's runs over 1,400 in the 4" gun, but note that there's also some 140gr stuff running over 1,300, so 125gr down that slow is pretty weak stuff. 16" barrels aren't even close... the 357mag is over 2,000.

[mikld]

I re-read the first post and you say "muzzle loader ranges". I would look at the 9mm ballistics at that yardage (25? 50?). 9mm will penetrate quite well, but mostly at combat/self defense distances, 10-20 yards. Ethics aside, I would think you wouldn't get any one shot kills and would have to do a lot of tracking.

[iShoot17]

I am going to say go with an upper 14X hard cast. Something like a SWC. Speed is a wonderful thing, but energy is better, especially when hunting for keeps. I understand speed and its purpose, but I keep the speed for varmints. For whitetail, I want all the energy to be transferred to the animal with as little pass through as possible.

Although I personally would not hunt with a 9mm and don't see it suited for the job, to each his own. But you have obviously done your fair share of hunting and know the zone to kill a deer. Put your shot there and let the bullet do what it was intended to do.

**With this all said, I also use XTPs for 44Mag when hunting whitetail with my SBH Hunter. They will also the trick, however, for some reason, I feel a hard cast better in this instance?**

[tahunua001]

I also agree with brian. I have no delusions at all that 9mm is more powerful or even capable of being loaded hotter than 357 but in light(115-124gr) bullet weights the 9mm from a carbine can easily be coaxed to 357 pistol velocities. many call 357 marginal for deer but not unethical to use by hunters that know their limitations so I have no idea what makes the 9mm just a poor decision for deer at those same ranges. two nearly identical projectiles traveling nearly identical speeds and yet one is not recommended because of the length of the casing... it's preposterous.

now then. I have a shop in town that does a lot of bartering with reloading components and I will walk in with a box of useless FTXs I have and depending on availability I will see if I can get either XTPS or gold dots though I will try to get the xtps first as they are getting the most nods. as for loads there isn't a place around that has power pistol but I see that some manuals have blue dot powder going higher velocity than unique. I know every gun is different but does blue dot cause any known inherent loss of accuracy over unique?

I will also be experimenting with a 120gr truncated cone mold that my brother has for 357 and adding gas checks and sizing down for 355 and testing the two loads side by side for performance.

[JohnKSa]

There was a member named Boris Bush who used to post here frequently. He killed a number of deer using the 9mm, mostly from pistols. He kept the range to within prudent distances and took high-percentage shots.

The effect was that he had very good results. In fact, one of the more horrific wounds I've seen posted was the result of a neck shot that he took on a good-sized whitetail with a 9mm JHP round.

[BigD_in_FL]

Sorry Brian - I'll disagree - I lived in northern NV for over 20 years - a SMALL mulie buck where I lived was 200, the bigger ones ran 300+, and if you really went off the grid where most humans never went, they went bigger. Idaho's deer run the same - BTDT.

We always weighed the deer before we processed, and dressed out, we averaged 200# before boning

I wouldn't use a 9mm on that - it just doesn't have the energy for a quick clean kill

[tahunua001]

Big D,
this discussion has nothing to do with 14 year old nevada mule deer freaks of nature. it has to do with small, mountain Whitetail in Idaho. your exaggerations of 450 pound deer also lend to discredit your position as there is a huge difference between 450 pounds and 300+. there are no deer in my region that get that large, it's just not in the genes. now can we please get back on topic with load data?

[57K]

Many of you may remember our late fellow Texan, Stephen A. Camp and his numerous articles on the Hi-Power. With several different bullet weights, the late Mr. Camp took a number of Texas whitetails with 9mm Hi-Powers at practical ranges. If it will stop an average size human male, it will stop a whitetail as long as you don't over-extend it's range. Since XTPs are among, if not, the toughest JHPs in 9mm, within about 30 yards a 147 gr. XTP loaded as fast as possible should anchor a whitetail when fired from a carbine with good shot placement always being key.