The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 20, 2013, 08:41 AM   #51
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanya
I think Mr. Nugent does our cause more harm than good; he's preaching (if one can call it that ) to the choir, and there's nothing in his presentation that is likely to change the mind of anyone who is on the fence about, much less opposed to, gun rights. Yes, his "performances" around gun rights are calculated to appeal to emotion -- but he appeals to the emotions of people who already support gun rights, and who like the idea of giving the finger (metaphorically or otherwise) to authority.
Preliminarily, let's recognize that giving the metaphorical finger to authority is a significant element in American culture. Appealing to that culture can be part of effective advocacy.

In order for Mr. Nugent to do the cause of Second Amendment rights more harm than good, is performances would need to persuade people to restrict the scope of those rights. In the single example of his advocacy that I have seen, his interview by a nearly insufferable Pierce Morgan, he was relatively (i.e. relative to Morgan) calm and rational. I cannot assess performances I have not seen, but if those performances are calculated to appeal to the emotions of those who are support a wide scope for the right, then it seems likely that those performances would only offend those who seek to restrict the scope of the right.

Seen in that light, Mr. Nugent's persuasive power rests not in converting those of contrary opinion but in supporting or intensifying the sentiment of those with a similar opinion (and perhaps a contrary opinion as well).

If we were to clone Alan Gura 1000 times over and send them out to speak at 100,000 luncheons, addressing those who would fairly, reasonably and dispassionately assess the merits of his position, we would still lose the political issue. As important as that activity is, that is not how people ordinarily reach and support their conclusions.

To employ a different metaphor, if one engages in a street fight and chides a co-belligerent for his failure to adhere to Queensbury rules, there is an area of the engagement one leaves unaddressed.
zukiphile is offline  
Old August 20, 2013, 09:40 AM   #52
Evan Thomas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 5,631
You may be right, Zuke -- my concern is whether he does more harm than good, given that he feeds right into some really negative stereotypes about gun owners.

I like your idea of cloning Alan Gura, though... not so much for speaking as for all those court cases.
__________________
Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.
Evan Thomas is offline  
Old August 20, 2013, 09:59 AM   #53
David13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 243
Unfortunately Alan Gura cloned 1000 times would have no effect ... unless he could get funding for his cases.
It costs a tremendous amount of money to pursue those cases.
And usually government agencies look closely at the cost to defend those cases, as opposed to settling or coming up with some accommodation.
Ted Nugent funds all his own activities (along with his sponsors, who, apparently like and approve of him).
And I suspect he funds some others as well. (He doesn't get free NRA dues, does he?)
So I liked that comment 'Rock on Ted'.
dc
David13 is offline  
Old August 20, 2013, 10:15 AM   #54
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,436
Quote:
...he feeds right into some really negative stereotypes about gun owners.
No doubt.

A lot of those stereotypes are true, and some are so rarely true that they are effectively slanderous.

I come at this with the idea that trying to tamp down unfavorable personal presentations is a losing battle because we have no control over them, and that a description of a right also includes unseemly exercises of the right.

Is this the fellow who cut a tree down with a rifle? That, cowboy hats and dressing as he does (in my iffy memory, he was a thin fellow with bad teeth, a scraggley beard, wearing a commercial camo undershirt under a coat or open shirt*) are not anything I would do.

If you and I conclude that this man behaves foolishly, we should also be able to explain that while so much of what he does isn't to our taste, we don't impose our tastes, anxieties and preferences on others in the absence of an important purpose and legitimate authority.

That is one aspect of temperament that separates Vanya and zukiphile from Senator Feinstein. While the Senator is smart and has ample rational capacity, it is her intolerant temperament that makes her a greater net harm than Nugent.

______________________
* I concede the possibility that I caught him on a good day, and still don't know all sorts of awful things about him.
zukiphile is offline  
Old August 20, 2013, 10:40 AM   #55
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
Unfortunately, rational supporters of gun rights don't get as much air time as crazies. I was surprised the other day when CNN had a fairly neutral report on gun buying in Newton. The progun folks were normal.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old August 20, 2013, 12:20 PM   #56
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,341
Quote:
Originally posted by Jo6pak:

Take him for what he is, an entertainer. No different than the celebrities that disagree with us politically.

I have no respect for any entertainer that has been convicted of breaking multiple laws in two different states and scenarios. Makes me wonder how many times they didn't get caught. The warden that comes and speaks to our Hunter Safety Classes claims the average poacher probably gets caught once for every 10-15 violations. I also have no respect for celebrity hunters that take low percentage shots on game while being video taped for television, even when they claim they have "respect" for their quarry. Celebrity Draft dodgers......that's a whole nuther can of worms.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old August 20, 2013, 04:45 PM   #57
Wyoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,345
To those who demand we all walk the straight and narrow, I suggest you clear the area around your glass houses of any rocks and sticks.

Ted Nugent is who he is, and it is better for us that he is pro 2nd Amendment than anti-2nd amendment!
__________________
Go Pokes!
Go Rams!
Wyoredman is offline  
Old August 20, 2013, 05:29 PM   #58
Barnacle Brad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 12, 2009
Location: Greybull, Wyoming
Posts: 416
http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/nugent.asp

This is as close to the truth as you will find on the claim that Uncle Ted is a draft dodger....

Just aint so...
__________________
Brad
Barnacle Brad is offline  
Old August 20, 2013, 05:49 PM   #59
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
Quote:
To those who demand we all walk the straight and narrow, I suggest you clear the area around your glass houses of any rocks and sticks.
There's a difference between someone who has the occasional indiscretion and someone who claims to represent us while constantly doing very irresponsible things in a very public way.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old August 20, 2013, 09:25 PM   #60
johnwilliamson062
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,995
Quote:
I think he's made an outright fool of himself and he's not the kind of political pundit who can be taken seriously if you don't agree with his views.
True. He is more out of control than some of the "activists" often derided on these boards.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old August 21, 2013, 07:48 AM   #61
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 11,131
Quote:
...constantly doing very irresponsible things in a very public way.
Oh, come on, Ted is not constantly doing "very irresponsible things" in a very public way. I have read his comments and although his opinions are boldly stated they are far from irresponsible. As far as breaking the law, what we are actually talking about are minor hunting violations. For someone who hunts as much as Ted Nugent hunts, there are bound to be a few issues here and there. People have claimed he poaches - really, does anyone believe this is true? He's guilty of maybe taking a bad shot (bear incident) once, and killing a deer that was legally too small. I'm not about to shake my finger in shame for this anymore than I'm going to blast a police officer for occasionally speeding.

Regarding his comments about Travon Martin (without getting into details) - I've read his comments on this, and don't see where he has said anything irresponsible.

Other than those two things, I don't know what else you might be referring to.
Skans is offline  
Old August 22, 2013, 11:37 AM   #62
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,970
Reading these pages is very disheartening to say the least.

I'm sure there are a few here that actually know what they are talking about when it comes to Ted Nugent's activities(' in 'and ' out' of the spotlight). But I'd be willing to bet everything I posses that most are speaking from hearsay or what they've heard from the media(and we all know just how accurate the media is. Especially when dealing with pro gun/hunting people) and don't know for fact everything that's being spouted.

Can anyone here name any good things he has done? Especially things that have not been put in the spotlight?

Not just for our own 2nd amendment rights but for people in general?

I sometimes admire his lack of political correctness. IMO, 'PC' is becoming a huge part of the downfall of this country. Wish more people in the spotlight, especially our leaders had a pair big enough to speak their minds instead of meandering or 'soft-shoeing' their beliefs.

The 'Ted Nugent' topic comes up every so often here on TFL and the sides are usually quickly chosen. Is it to much to ask that before it comes up again next year that folks try to learn some good things Ted has done. I.E. for kids, handicapped people, schools and the less privileged etc. Every part(fact is...most parts) of his life never hits the media.

FWIW...I don't have an issue with what he said regarding the Travon Martin case either.
shortwave is offline  
Old August 22, 2013, 02:33 PM   #63
gav1230
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2013
Posts: 148
Nutjobs like Nugent do nothing but harm to the pro gun movement. All he does is paint a bad image of all gun owners and give the anti-gun folks a caricature to make fun of.
gav1230 is offline  
Old August 22, 2013, 03:21 PM   #64
Pahoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 8,783
shortwave +1

Great perspective on Ted and as previously stated, he is a Patriot. I mostly have two measure of a person; How they stand with "their" Bible and where they stand on the Constitution. I don't suppose he has ever taken an oath to defend "our" Constitution but in his heart, he surely has. All politicians have and most, break their oath, every day. I'm not worried about those who do but instead, the mindset that votes for them. ....

Be Safe !!!
__________________
'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.
Pahoo is offline  
Old August 22, 2013, 09:57 PM   #65
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
We've trod this ground before, and it doesn't look like anyone's changing their minds. Closing this one before things get uncivil.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08057 seconds with 8 queries