30-06 vs .308 for mid to long range?

[Bart B.]

David, if one checks the details of how the .308 became the favorite competition cartridge over the .30-06 from late 1963 through the next few years, here's what they'll observe. And the difference was microscopic. The first .308 chambered rifles that outscored the .30-06 ones were identical except for their chambers. They even used the same components except for the case.

The first bolt action rifles were Win 70 receivers originally made for .30-06 size cartridges but with a spacer at the back of the magazine and a longer bolt stop so the bolt throw would be about half an inch shorter. Barrels in competition were typical 26" long ones tapering from 1.2" at the breech to .900" at the muzzle. Hart made most of them and they all had the same bore and groove diameters that worked best with Sierra's bullets. Both had 1:11 twists. A few people tried using the Rem. 700 short action but it had too many faults to make any realistic comparison between short and long actions with .308 barrels in them. As it turned out, those round ones didn't hold bedding as good as the flat bottom/sides Win 70's did and, along with magazine feed, trigger and extractor problems, the 700's were not popular.

The semiauto version was the M1 with the difference between the old .30-06 parts list, a 7.62 chambered barrel made by Springfield Armory in MA with a slightly larger gas port and a 1:12 twist. It took the M14 shops an extra year or so to work out the details of making them shoot as accurate as the 7.62 Garands, but they finally did it. Both shot more accurate with aftermarket match barrels; almost as accurate as what bolt guns did.

Both the 7.62 NATO and .30-06 peak pressure specs as measured by arsenal copper units of pressure systems were identical; 50,000 cup. What Winchester used for their .308 Win cartridge was a different cup system and therefore had different numbers emerge from it. Otherwise, both cartridges operated at the same peak pressure.

Someone told me years ago that Remington went to 1:10 twists for their .308 chambered barrels because most customers thought that was the best for heavier bullets. Didn't matter that Winchester used 1:12 with great success even with 200-gr. round nose bullets. That does make it cheaper to use the same mandrel for hammer forging the same 1:10 twist 30 caliber barrels for all sorts of cartridges.

[DAVID NANCARROW]

Bart, if you will pay closer attention to my post, I mentioned that a lot of the commercial rifles used a 1:12 twist in their 308 chambering. Nothing mentioned about Hart barrels or specialty target rifles. If you care to look at Big Green's current offerings in 308, you will find that more than half of them still give the 1:12 twist barrel to the 308.
I notice that Savage tends to lean toward the 10 twist, but I really don't know when this began with that firm.
Winchester seems to offer the M70 in 308 with a 1:12 twist only.

Not so sure what special CUP rating the 30-06 used to use, but SAAMI spec shows in PSI that the 06 max average pressure is 60K while the 308 is 62K. I chalk that up to some of the older rifles chambered in 06 as compared to the newer steel alloys available in the 1950s

[Bart B.]

David, I noticed what you're reminding me of. My post was put up to explain what detailed and valid reasons were behind the .308's better accuracy than .30-06's when it's preference for accurate cartridges originated.

There's lots of info on the 'net stating the arsenal pressure systems used on military small arms ammo set both the .30-06 and 7.62 NATO round at 50,000 cup. That's still the SAAMI spec for the .30-06, but Winchester's different sytem details for CUP measurements for their .308 Win case were established at 52,000 cup as easily seen on pages 15 and 16 in:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_...wnload/206.pdf

Read post 4 in the following:

http://www.xcrforum.com/forum/19-308...62-x-51mm.html

[DAVID NANCARROW]

Agregory, I have no personal experience with the scope your package comes with, but I do have some with the Howa in 30-06. It seems to be a pretty decent, reliable action. They also have a good reputation for accuracy. Feed it decent ammunition and do your part, and I believe you wont be disappointed!

[greggy99712]

I;m shooting a remington 700, berger 168's and hitting 1/2 moa at 800 yds. I'll keep my 'o6 thank you

[44 AMP]

instead of ordering the same gun in .308 for $200 more.

If you are being charged $200 more for the same gun in .308, you are being ripped off, and a fool if you pay it.

From the OP, you are looking at a $450 gun? rifle & scope combination? Sadly, in today's market, that makes it a bargain gun, and while perfectly serviceable for many things, they are never the highest quality, and so not suited for highly specialized things (like long range match shooting).

To make an imperfect analogy, go buy a new Ford economy car (Fusion?), or something similar. Perfectly fine for getting around town or taking a trip, but you won't see any running at Daytona...

The accuracy advantage of the .308 over the .30-06 exists, but its only significant in match rifles and long range shooting. in the field, it is essentially meaningless.

Also the 100fps difference between the two means approximately half an inch difference in drop at 100yds (and the ratio is constant as the distance increases). There is no animal that can tell the difference, and for every guy who thinks the 06 drops 'em faster or kills them deader, there is a guy who thinks the .308 does it better than the 06.

When you are talking about regular sporting rifles any individual rifle (and ammo) in 06 may be more accurate than another individual one in .308, and the opposite is also true.

Remember one of the reasons the military went from 30-06 was because to a certain extent it was it was an over-kill ON HUMANS!

This sounds sensible, except that the military replaced the 06 with a round that had EXACTLY THE SAME BALLISTICS! There is a whole 10fps (TEN FEET PER SECOND) difference in the specs for GI ball .30-06 and .308 (150gr bullet). There is NO DIFFERENCE between the two.

Where you get the 100fps (200fps maybe, with certain loads) is shooting commercial ammo in civilian rifles.

[Westcoaster]

Gentlemen, an informative read, thank you.

[trigger45]

My howa 1500 is in .270 first 3 shots were a cover leaf. Get the .30-06 and don't look back. Good choice.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

The .30-'06 is *not* a compromise. It's the better choice, really, 9 times out 10, in my opinion.

[Brotherbadger]

Both will work. If it was me? I'd go 30-06 as the ammo is very easy to find around here.

[Bart B.]

A 100 fps difference in 30 caliber bullets makes a 2/10" drop change at 100 yards and a 40" one at 1000.

MIL SPEC data shows about 90 fps slower bullets for the 7.62 cartridge compared to the 30 caliber one, both spec'd at 50,000 cup

I do not believe a .30-06 will put 20 successive shots in 20 minutes inside 1/2 moa at 800 yards. Any rifle will put 3 shots in 1/2 moa at 800 once in a great while

[44 AMP]

MIL SPEC data shows about 90 fps slower bullets for the 7.62 cartridge compared to the 30 caliber one, both spec'd at 50,000 cup

While I cannot personally vouch for the accuracy of the information, Cartridges of the World has listed this since the 1970s:

7.62mm NATO, Ball, M80
Velocity: 2750 +/- 30fps at 78 feet
Pressure: 50,000psi max avg
Bullet: 149-3 grs.

Caliber .30, Ball, M2
Velocity: 2740 +/- 30fps at 78 feet
Pressure: 50,000psi max avg
Bullet: 152 -3 grs.

To me, that's close enough not to matter in any practical way.
( if different sources show different data, is the difference enough to matter?)

[mavracer]

It's gonna take a very good shot and a good rifle/barrel to truely appreciate the accuracy difference. This isn't going to be apparent in typical big box store hunting rifle/scope combos. For those rifles most shooters won't even shoot enough to get an idea which was more accurate.
As to the brass tacks competative differences guns and ammo have evolved a lot ~50 years ago it took a 300 Win Mag to the avaliable bullets fast enough with the avaliable powders to reach 1000 yards accuratly. Heck now they're doing it with 5.56.
The only places 308 is still king is where 308 is the only thing allowed anymore, 6.5s have taken over. The 308 and 30-06 are both still very capable rounds and the technology avaliable has increased this capability as much as everything else. Sleek new bullets and better powders have given even more range than anyone would have believed years ago.

Nosler's new 190gr accu bond long range should easily be able to be pushed 2750-2800 from a 26" barrelled modern bolt 06 with it's .640 BC this keeps it supersonic to ~1500.

[s3779m]

By the time you read all of this, your lgs will probably have the 308 howa in stock.

[JD0x0]

Try some 240 grainers in .308 and .30-06 the difference will become pretty apparent.

Also most factory ammo in .30-06 is loaded to SAAMI specs. 60K PSI. The SAAMI standard was set based on older, weaker guns. Meaning, if you're careful, and smart, and use a strong enough firearm and good brass, you could potentially load the .30-06 up to 65,000PSI safely, which would just make the 06' further surpass the .308 win.

[Bart B.]

There are people who shot 240's from. 308's producing better accuracy at long range than any .30-06 load did. I've watched them do it. Both cartridges' chambers need long throats in 1:8 twist barrels to shoot 240's accurately.

Flat trajectories don't make better accuracy. Repeatable trajectories do.

Given equal conditions and accuracy levels of rifle and ammo, the 308 will shoot better scores from prone among all 30 calibers.

Best accuracy from 308 Win's and 30 caliber magnums at long ranges has stayed the same and equal since the 1960's.

[old roper]

Bart you had ideal condition when you shot that small group @ 800yd also front rest/scope so really how accurate is 308.

Couple guys shooting 308 IBS 1000yds back east don't think they won anything yet so nothing magical about 308.

[mavracer]

Given equal conditions and accuracy levels of rifle and ammo, the 308 will shoot better scores from prone among all 30 calibers.

Alrighty then the conditions are 1760 yards bring your 308.
Living in the 60s on a short 1000 yard range ain't gonna help in today's game.

[Mystro]

What does it matter? Both will get the job done. In the end the weak link is always the guy behind the rifle.

[SpringOWeiler]

The 30-06 as absolutly superior to the 308. For some reason that crowd of queens thinks the cartridge is restricted to it's m1 loading. If you own a 30-06 and reload for it the 300winmag seems kinda stupid and the 308 is a laugh. At the end of the day the reloading manuals have the final say on what it can and can't do. Almost every one of my reloading manuals pegs the 30-06 with a 168 at 3000fps. Substantially faster than any 308. Don't by into the crap when your 308 buddies are blowing out primers and tossing brass after 2 reloads with their loads while you are continusouly loading your 06 to 3k with a 168. As it is with the car world, "Their is no replacement for displacement."

[Mystro]

Really,........Have you actually chronographed a 168 going 3000fps out of a 30-06????

[SpringOWeiler]

I sure have and I have a destroyed ar500 steel plate that was set out at 125yards to show it too.

<...Foolish hostility removed...>

[Ridgerunner665]

Originally Posted by Mystro

Really,........Have you actually chronographed a 168 going 3000fps out of a 30-06????

I have, last time I was home, messing around to see what MRP powder would do in my son's 30-06...pretty accurate too...shot 168 Ballistic Tips and 175 VLD's.

168 went 3,018 fps with 65 grains (pretty well compressed)...low ES and SD.

175 went 3,000 fps with the same powder charge.

All bullets seated to 3.34" OAL...bolt lift was normal, primer looked good, no head expansion...used Win brass...QuickLoad says its 63,000 psi, with all capacities measured and entered...worked in that rifle, may not work in yours.

24" barrel, Win model 70, Ultimate Shadow

Even H4350 will get the 168 to well over 2,900...

[Ruger480]

I have, last time I was home, messing around to see what MRP powder would do in my son's 30-06...pretty accurate too...shot 168 Ballistic Tips and 175 VLD's.

168 went 3,018 fps with 65 grains (pretty well compressed)...low ES and SD.

175 went 3,000 fps with the same powder charge.

This is what I'm talkin' about! Everybody wants to tout what the 308 can do with todays powders and bullets but they only want to compare it to what the 06 could do 50 years ago.

[Ridgerunner665]

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