$39 Bulk mil surplus powders

Marco Califo · May 13, 2012, 08:05 PM

Wideners is taking orders again, after all but one of their 8# surplus powders were suddenly and simultaneously out of stock.

So, I got a receipt for my order of WC872 and 844 ($85) and some other goodies (but not one of the $25 Polish AK-47 stamped receiver blanks!?!).

The 844 will handle all of my real 223 and 308 needs. The 872 will be tried as a cheapo 308 duplex loads behind 175 and 220 gr projectiles. I will post my results, when I get the goods. I might get a chronograph, if I cant find one to borrow. But it is Wideners, so maybe by July 4th?

zxcvbob · May 13, 2012, 08:35 PM

I've been watching the 844, waiting for it to go back in-stock. But I also want to get a pound of CFE223 to try and it's still out.

Does 844 need magnum primers? I have thousands of Wolf and Federal SR primers already, but no SRM primers. Just wondering if I need to order some CCI-41's or something.

Marco Califo · May 13, 2012, 09:15 PM

I have been using regular SRP for all 223 powders including H335.
So, I don't think 844 will need them. I really like the H335 and AA Data 2230-C, meter well and are just the right speed, and seem easy to ignite. But these Ball powders are temperature sensetive, so I can't hunt Polar Bear in Antartica. I did order #41's, but more so because I load for semi-autos.

medalguy · May 15, 2012, 12:28 AM

I've used up about 48 pounds of WC844 so far using standard Winchester SR primers and Wolf 556 primers and they both worked just fine.

zxcvbob · May 15, 2012, 12:35 AM

Quote:

I've used up about 48 pounds of WC844 so far using standard Winchester SR primers and Wolf 556 primers and they both worked just fine.

Thanks. Both of those are really hot primers, so it doesn't help much. (I just need to try it) Most of my shooting is in the summer, where it probably doesn't matter. I have a couple of hundred Winchesters I can load for cold weather ammo *if* it makes a difference, and that's probably all I need.

Tom68 · May 15, 2012, 02:03 PM

Marco, i just got my order a few days ago, 8# jug of WC844 that I ordered at the beginning of April. So, yeh, July 4 sounds about right! maybe a little sooner, though...

zxcvbob, I use the CCI 41's and am quite happy with them. Like some of the others, I don't think that a magnum primer is absolutely necessary, but Speer #14 recommends a magnum for both H-335 and BL-C2, so I use 'em for both 844 and 846.

Incognito · May 17, 2012, 02:36 AM

I've been using CCI 400 primers & WC844 in an AR with no problems.

**Unclenick** · May 17, 2012, 09:10 AM

What you want to look for isn't ignition failures or even close range accuracy issues, necessarily, but minimum velocity variation. So far, the KVB-556M's have done best for me with 2230 and 748. I've not run it with either surplus bulk grade WC844 or canister grade (H335), but Alan Jones says CCI changed its magnum primer formulation in 1989 to optimize it for ignition of these St. Marks spherical propellants. The #41's have the same formulation, but use a different anvil design to reduce sensitivity to mil spec. I get still lower SD's from the Russian primers, so they are my current favorites for long range loads in the AR, whether 748 or a stick powder.

Marc,

I've just suggested to another board member that if he's proficient with a soldering iron, he might want to consider this.

Marco Califo · May 19, 2012, 12:31 PM

Wideners Shipping Times Improved
I got a receipt Saturday and the next Friday I got the UPS tracking info/ Delivery is slated for next Thursday - 12 days order to delivery, from eastern Tenn. to California.

Greg Mercurio · May 19, 2012, 06:53 PM

Just tested the waters for 2 jugs. Extremely annoying to find the shipping and handling PLUS HazMat fees are $55 additional! Pass.

Marco Califo · May 19, 2012, 08:08 PM

"Just tested the waters for 2 jugs. Extremely annoying to find the shipping and handling PLUS HazMat fees are $55 additional! Pass."

If you buy ANY gunpowder or primers, from ANY online seller, to be shipped, you will pay $27.50 HazMat, plus shipping (except on some very large orders). The way you work the calculator, after you find the ON switch, is to:
1. Plan ahead and group your purchase to purchase bulk powders, any primers you need, and a cannister powder or two that you find necessary. The more items you combine, the less each item's share of pro rata cost.
2. Compare prices to your local source, IF you have one. factor in your sales taxes if needed. Buy locally if that is a better deal.
I am finding that one HazMat order a year or less works out to be most economical.
Column "I" is my cost per pound when allocating $60 shipping charges. These compare to $28.5 per pound for cannister locally, if I can find something I can use. Add 8.75% sales tax and that is $30.99 before I drive around looking for powder. So, I am saving at least 33% on each pound.

**Unclenick** · May 20, 2012, 02:46 PM

It really varies with the supplier. I bought 10,000 primers on sale from Natchez last Fall and was only charged a $17 Hazmat fee, though $27.50 is their standard hazmat rate. I've seen as high as about twice that. Some places combine shipping and hazmat charges to cover up how much is what portion of the cost. Some portion is the actual hazmat fee (may vary with the shipper) and some portion covers the extra packaging and paperwork from the source. Some outfits appear to be treating their shipping departments as separate profit centers from the actual catalog sale, so the shipping and handling makes a margin. Thank Harvard Business School for that kind of thinking.

I went to look it up from UPS. The information is here, and doesn't correlate to $27.50. If I'm reading it correctly, it's $20 to the regular shipper with a hazmat permit and $30 to the less regular shipper of hazmats. I think that's what they mean, anyway. Fedex Ground's 2012 rate increase says it went from $20 to $22.50.

Anyway, I can't tell you why the sites choose to charge exactly what they do whenever they do it. Given the prevalence of $27.50, I'm starting to suspect pricing collusion or, more likely, simple copycatting.

Greg Mercurio · May 20, 2012, 03:47 PM

Dear Marco: I have no issue with either calculators or smart a$$es like you. My point is that both the HazMat fee and the Shipping & Handling are in excess of what many others charge. Not really sure why you feel the need to insult people, maybe it's the air in LA that makes people crazy.

zxcvbob · May 20, 2012, 03:59 PM

Have you shipped anything lately? The rates have gone crazy this year. Then add $27.50 to it.

You can still easily save enough money on a large order to be worth it. "Large" can be as little as one case of 5000 primers.

**Unclenick** · May 20, 2012, 04:09 PM

Hey guys, let's keep it civil. Be neither condescending nor vulgar, or the thread will close.

CrustyFN · May 20, 2012, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Thanks. Both of those are really hot primers, so it doesn't help much.

I use WC-844 with Magtech SRP's and have no problems.

Marco Califo · May 20, 2012, 06:32 PM

http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/ SHIPPING: UPS/FedEx Surcharge of $27.50 Per Package on Hazardous Materials
http://www.midwayusa.com/ Powder ships separately approximately 2 weeks after order is placed. $27.50 Haz Mat plus $9.99 Shipping fees apply. Powder cannot be returned, 48 lb
max, ground freight only, adult signature required and no shipments to HI or AK.
http://www.wideners.com/index.cfm HAZARDOUS MATERIALS: Now, here is a bear. It is so complicated to ship Haz-Mat (powder, primers and component tracer bullets) that each order is reviewed individually to calculate the packing and shipping charges so the customer gets the best deal. Current Haz-Mat charges are $27.50 per package. Order all you can to reduce your cost per unit as many items can usually be put in one package.
http://www.gibrass.com/ HAZ MAT fee of $27.50 added to all orders of less than 6 jugs. Can ship up to 6 jugs on one HAZ MAT fee.
http://iidbs.com/hitech.zkb?root&method&object-menu0
Haz-Mat Extra An extra $27.50 Haz Mat fee will be added for powder.
Up to 4 - 8 lb containers can be shipped with one Haz-Mat fee.
Order a full case (4 - 8 lb containers, mix or match) and pay only shipping, we will pay Haz-Mat.
http://www.natchezss.com/index.cfm
Hazmat shipping fee applies - $27.50 handling charge per 50 Lbs.

**Unclenick** · May 20, 2012, 09:58 PM

Yep, I looked them up, too. But note the Fedex and UPS documents. That's not what the shippers are charging the dealers.

zxcvbob · May 20, 2012, 10:08 PM

Nick, the page you linked is from 2009. Here's the current rate page:
http://www.fedex.com/us/2012rates/su...-and-fees.html (it's $27.50)

11B-101ABN · May 20, 2012, 10:36 PM

Widener's has been running a special for a while: Buy 6 jugs (or increments of 6) of WC867 or the other .50 cal powder, and the haz-mat was not charged. I bought 6 last month and only paid shipping. But my shooting buddy ordered 6 last night, and they DID charge $27.59 Haz-Mat, so the special must be over which tells me the supplies are getting low again.

**Unclenick** · May 21, 2012, 07:48 AM

zxcvbob,

Thanks for finding and correcting my error. Apologies to Marco.

I'd sworn I got to that page following the links to the 2012 increases, but their links must have pulled me in the wrong direction. I still can't decode the UPS verbiage to my complete satisfaction. Sinclair/Brownells says UPS, specifically, is charging them $27.50, too, and that's not in that document.

When you go back to the 2009 document and see it was 22.50 then and $20 the year before (2008), and 27.50 now, you can calculate they've averaged 8.3% a year. I wish I could invest in part of the economy that grew that fast and that regularly. It's apparently quite a nice profit source for them. I'm just hoping the information I got that primers and powder would be dropped from hazmat requirements in 2014 is still correct.

Greg Mercurio · May 21, 2012, 08:45 AM

We buy freight daily. Fedex, UPS and USPS, plus air and surface freight for large cube shipments. All rates are negotiated based on your business profile, and ability to negotiate the best deal for your company.

Those companies that discount their freight to keep customers happy are the ones who get my money. Those that charge list rate get nothing from me. Simple as that. It's another profit center and while I'm a capitalist pig, price gouging is not high on my list of priorities.

May 13, 2012, 08:35 PM	#2
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	I've been watching the 844, waiting for it to go back in-stock. But I also want to get a pound of CFE223 to try and it's still out. Does 844 need magnum primers? I have thousands of Wolf and Federal SR primers already, but no SRM primers. Just wondering if I need to order some CCI-41's or something. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

May 13, 2012, 09:15 PM	#3
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	I wanted CFE also. I have been using regular SRP for all 223 powders including H335. So, I don't think 844 will need them. I really like the H335 and AA Data 2230-C, meter well and are just the right speed, and seem easy to ignite. But these Ball powders are temperature sensetive, so I can't hunt Polar Bear in Antartica. I did order #41's, but more so because I load for semi-autos. __________________ ............

May 17, 2012, 09:10 AM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	What you want to look for isn't ignition failures or even close range accuracy issues, necessarily, but minimum velocity variation. So far, the KVB-556M's have done best for me with 2230 and 748. I've not run it with either surplus bulk grade WC844 or canister grade (H335), but Alan Jones says CCI changed its magnum primer formulation in 1989 to optimize it for ignition of these St. Marks spherical propellants. The #41's have the same formulation, but use a different anvil design to reduce sensitivity to mil spec. I get still lower SD's from the Russian primers, so they are my current favorites for long range loads in the AR, whether 748 or a stick powder. Marc, I've just suggested to another board member that if he's proficient with a soldering iron, he might want to consider this. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 19, 2012, 12:31 PM	#9
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Wideners Shipping Times Improved Wideners Shipping Times Improved I got a receipt Saturday and the next Friday I got the UPS tracking info/ Delivery is slated for next Thursday - 12 days order to delivery, from eastern Tenn. to California. __________________ ............

May 20, 2012, 02:46 PM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	It really varies with the supplier. I bought 10,000 primers on sale from Natchez last Fall and was only charged a $17 Hazmat fee, though $27.50 is their standard hazmat rate. I've seen as high as about twice that. Some places combine shipping and hazmat charges to cover up how much is what portion of the cost. Some portion is the actual hazmat fee (may vary with the shipper) and some portion covers the extra packaging and paperwork from the source. Some outfits appear to be treating their shipping departments as separate profit centers from the actual catalog sale, so the shipping and handling makes a margin. Thank Harvard Business School for that kind of thinking. I went to look it up from UPS. The information is here, and doesn't correlate to $27.50. If I'm reading it correctly, it's $20 to the regular shipper with a hazmat permit and $30 to the less regular shipper of hazmats. I think that's what they mean, anyway. Fedex Ground's 2012 rate increase says it went from $20 to $22.50. Anyway, I can't tell you why the sites choose to charge exactly what they do whenever they do it. Given the prevalence of $27.50, I'm starting to suspect pricing collusion or, more likely, simple copycatting. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; May 20, 2012 at 03:10 PM.

May 13, 2012, 08:05 PM	#1
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	$39 Bulk mil surplus powders Wideners is taking orders again, after all but one of their 8# surplus powders were suddenly and simultaneously out of stock. So, I got a receipt for my order of WC872 and 844 ($85) and some other goodies (but not one of the $25 Polish AK-47 stamped receiver blanks!?!). The 844 will handle all of my real 223 and 308 needs. The 872 will be tried as a cheapo 308 duplex loads behind 175 and 220 gr projectiles. I will post my results, when I get the goods. I might get a chronograph, if I cant find one to borrow. But it is Wideners, so maybe by July 4th? __________________ ............ Last edited by Marco Califo; May 13, 2012 at 10:10 PM.

May 15, 2012, 12:28 AM	#4
medalguy Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2009 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,033	I've used up about 48 pounds of WC844 so far using standard Winchester SR primers and Wolf 556 primers and they both worked just fine.

May 15, 2012, 02:03 PM	#6
Tom68 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2011 Location: Alabama Posts: 349	Marco, i just got my order a few days ago, 8# jug of WC844 that I ordered at the beginning of April. So, yeh, July 4 sounds about right! maybe a little sooner, though... zxcvbob, I use the CCI 41's and am quite happy with them. Like some of the others, I don't think that a magnum primer is absolutely necessary, but Speer #14 recommends a magnum for both H-335 and BL-C2, so I use 'em for both 844 and 846.

May 17, 2012, 02:36 AM	#7
Incognito Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 370	I've been using CCI 400 primers & WC844 in an AR with no problems.

May 19, 2012, 06:53 PM	#10
Greg Mercurio Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Posts: 151	Just tested the waters for 2 jugs. Extremely annoying to find the shipping and handling PLUS HazMat fees are $55 additional! Pass.

May 20, 2012, 03:47 PM	#13
Greg Mercurio Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Posts: 151	Dear Marco: I have no issue with either calculators or smart a$$es like you. My point is that both the HazMat fee and the Shipping & Handling are in excess of what many others charge. Not really sure why you feel the need to insult people, maybe it's the air in LA that makes people crazy.

May 20, 2012, 03:59 PM	#14
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	Have you shipped anything lately? The rates have gone crazy this year. Then add $27.50 to it. You can still easily save enough money on a large order to be worth it. "Large" can be as little as one case of 5000 primers. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

May 20, 2012, 04:09 PM	#15
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Hey guys, let's keep it civil. Be neither condescending nor vulgar, or the thread will close. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 20, 2012, 06:32 PM	#17
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Dare to Compare http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/ SHIPPING: UPS/FedEx Surcharge of $27.50 Per Package on Hazardous Materials http://www.midwayusa.com/ Powder ships separately approximately 2 weeks after order is placed. $27.50 Haz Mat plus $9.99 Shipping fees apply. Powder cannot be returned, 48 lb max, ground freight only, adult signature required and no shipments to HI or AK. http://www.wideners.com/index.cfm HAZARDOUS MATERIALS: Now, here is a bear. It is so complicated to ship Haz-Mat (powder, primers and component tracer bullets) that each order is reviewed individually to calculate the packing and shipping charges so the customer gets the best deal. Current Haz-Mat charges are $27.50 per package. Order all you can to reduce your cost per unit as many items can usually be put in one package. http://www.gibrass.com/ HAZ MAT fee of $27.50 added to all orders of less than 6 jugs. Can ship up to 6 jugs on one HAZ MAT fee. http://iidbs.com/hitech.zkb?root&method&object-menu0 Haz-Mat Extra An extra $27.50 Haz Mat fee will be added for powder. Up to 4 - 8 lb containers can be shipped with one Haz-Mat fee. Order a full case (4 - 8 lb containers, mix or match) and pay only shipping, we will pay Haz-Mat. http://www.natchezss.com/index.cfm Hazmat shipping fee applies - $27.50 handling charge per 50 Lbs. __________________ ............

May 20, 2012, 09:58 PM	#18
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Yep, I looked them up, too. But note the Fedex and UPS documents. That's not what the shippers are charging the dealers. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 20, 2012, 10:08 PM	#19
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	Nick, the page you linked is from 2009. Here's the current rate page: http://www.fedex.com/us/2012rates/su...-and-fees.html (it's $27.50) __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

May 20, 2012, 10:36 PM	#20
11B-101ABN Member Join Date: March 29, 2010 Location: Eastern Iowa USA Posts: 47	Haz-Mat Charges Widener's has been running a special for a while: Buy 6 jugs (or increments of 6) of WC867 or the other .50 cal powder, and the haz-mat was not charged. I bought 6 last month and only paid shipping. But my shooting buddy ordered 6 last night, and they DID charge $27.59 Haz-Mat, so the special must be over which tells me the supplies are getting low again.

May 21, 2012, 07:48 AM	#21
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	zxcvbob, Thanks for finding and correcting my error. Apologies to Marco. I'd sworn I got to that page following the links to the 2012 increases, but their links must have pulled me in the wrong direction. I still can't decode the UPS verbiage to my complete satisfaction. Sinclair/Brownells says UPS, specifically, is charging them $27.50, too, and that's not in that document. When you go back to the 2009 document and see it was 22.50 then and $20 the year before (2008), and 27.50 now, you can calculate they've averaged 8.3% a year. I wish I could invest in part of the economy that grew that fast and that regularly. It's apparently quite a nice profit source for them. I'm just hoping the information I got that primers and powder would be dropped from hazmat requirements in 2014 is still correct. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; May 21, 2012 at 09:52 AM.

May 21, 2012, 08:45 AM	#22
Greg Mercurio Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Posts: 151	We buy freight daily. Fedex, UPS and USPS, plus air and surface freight for large cube shipments. All rates are negotiated based on your business profile, and ability to negotiate the best deal for your company. Those companies that discount their freight to keep customers happy are the ones who get my money. Those that charge list rate get nothing from me. Simple as that. It's another profit center and while I'm a capitalist pig, price gouging is not high on my list of priorities.