Flattened Primer Question

actionflies · September 17, 2007, 05:46 PM

I was testing a 9mm 115 FMJ load using Titegroup 4.6gr. 1.136 oal CCI small pistol primer and all the primers was flattened. The maxload for 9mm in Titegroup is 4.8gr. So what did I do wrong?

Wildalaska · September 17, 2007, 05:48 PM

From what I can see those primers look fine

WildbusierthanrosieodonnellinabuffetAlaska TM

crowbeaner · September 17, 2007, 06:29 PM

They are JUST starting to show signs of pressure. Look at the dimple starting to form around the firing pin indentation. If you are .2 grains under max. the max. should be pretty close. I wouldn't go any higher unless I used a milder primer. They aren't flattened really. There is still radius around the edge of the primer. If you increase the charge, watch for primer pockets getting loose. My $0.02. CB.

ocharry · September 17, 2007, 06:35 PM

yup,,looks purty normal to me

ocharry

rwilson452 · September 17, 2007, 06:50 PM

I would say your real close to max. I would be real careful about pushing any more. I would suspect you should feel some slide banging.

Trapper L · September 17, 2007, 06:57 PM

Looks pretty warm to me. I don't find any data as high as you posted for a FMJ. I show the Speer Gold Dot at that loading but not FMJs.The highest I can find is 4.5 grs (Speer and Lyman manuals) which makes it sound like you are over max already. I'd back off and start at 4.1 and work back up. The 9mm should not have primers that are cratered and grossly flattened.

If you are just loading plinkers, I'd load 4.3 grs and play with the COL from recommended length of 1.135 to max length in .005 intervals providing they will cycle thru the clip. This is how I manage to get most of my pistols to shoot under an inch at 25 yds- playing with the COL at a load just below max.

swmike · September 17, 2007, 08:20 PM

Cases look fine here. Even at 4.8 gr of Titegroup you are less than 30,000 PSI for a 9mm load. Not even close to a plus P load.

P-990 · September 18, 2007, 06:24 PM

They look fine to me. If they're plenty hot enough to cycle the pistol, I'd be tempted to back off .2gr, but otherwise, load and shoot.

Alternatively, you could push your OAL to 1.16" if the magazines and bullet will allow it. Some bullets and chambers won't allow for this, but most standard FMJ profiles should be OK.

kingudaroad · September 18, 2007, 07:13 PM

Looks like a little primer cratering more than flattening. If their shooting and functioning and no other pressure signs they should be good.

You might load some up with a different primer and see if they still do that, but if you do you should back off the charge and work back up.

poker2112 · September 18, 2007, 07:45 PM

anyone got a pic of flattened primers?

kingudaroad · September 18, 2007, 07:58 PM

Here's several pressure signs.

BigJimP · September 19, 2007, 04:19 PM

They look fine to me, in the photo at least, but if your eyes say they are flattened I think you're smart in questioning your process. I believe the max load listed is 4.8 grains so you should be fine at 4.6 grains of Titegroup.

I would probably go back and check your powder drops just to be sure you are really at 4.6 though . When I start my press, I usually dump the first 5 powder drops just to get things flowing - then measure the first 10 drops and until there is no variation at all ( 0.1 is a lot of variation as you know ) before I run any quantity thru my press. Static electricity, humidity, etc may all affect the way a powder drops. My press has a powder check station - but I still check about every 10th shell on a digital scale - just in case.

Common problems I see on presses - are there any grains of powder sticking to the side of the powder reservoir - it means there is static. I use the "dryer sheets" - anti static, whatever my wife has laying around - and I wad up 2 of them and put them inside the factory powder storage cannister and just leave them there when I open a new can of powder / I wipe the inside and outside of the powder cannister of my press down with the anti static wipes / wipe the metal parts of it down too until there are no more flakes of powder sticking to the walls of the hopper. Think about your technique - how you drop the handle, how you raise it, are you consistent, do you hesitate anywhere, sometimes cases hang up a little if you don't use case lube ( I use case lube on all calibers, even though I run carbide dies ) it just makes thing run easier and smoother. Make sure your bench or the press itself is good and solid and not moving around. But my hunch is you might be on the high side of 4.6 ( maybe 4.7 once in a while or even 4.8 and that can be an issue).

September 17, 2007, 05:46 PM	#1
actionflies Member Join Date: June 5, 2007 Location: Aloha, Oregon Posts: 70	Flattened Primer Question I was testing a 9mm 115 FMJ load using Titegroup 4.6gr. 1.136 oal CCI small pistol primer and all the primers was flattened. The maxload for 9mm in Titegroup is 4.8gr. So what did I do wrong?

September 17, 2007, 08:20 PM	#7
swmike Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2005 Location: Marysville, WA Posts: 670	Cases look fine here. Even at 4.8 gr of Titegroup you are less than 30,000 PSI for a 9mm load. Not even close to a plus P load. __________________ My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target. "In God we trust, all others are suspects." "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help". ____________________________________________

September 18, 2007, 06:24 PM	#8
P-990 Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2002 Location: Only1/2WayThere Posts: 1,316	They look fine to me. If they're plenty hot enough to cycle the pistol, I'd be tempted to back off .2gr, but otherwise, load and shoot. Alternatively, you could push your OAL to 1.16" if the magazines and bullet will allow it. Some bullets and chambers won't allow for this, but most standard FMJ profiles should be OK. __________________ NRA Master, Highpower Rifle, Across-the-Course NRA Expert, Highpower Rifle, Mid-Range Prone

September 17, 2007, 05:48 PM	#2
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	From what I can see those primers look fine WildbusierthanrosieodonnellinabuffetAlaska TM

September 17, 2007, 06:29 PM	#3
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	They are JUST starting to show signs of pressure. Look at the dimple starting to form around the firing pin indentation. If you are .2 grains under max. the max. should be pretty close. I wouldn't go any higher unless I used a milder primer. They aren't flattened really. There is still radius around the edge of the primer. If you increase the charge, watch for primer pockets getting loose. My $0.02. CB.

September 17, 2007, 06:35 PM	#4
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 686	yup,,looks purty normal to me ocharry

September 17, 2007, 06:50 PM	#5
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	I would say your real close to max. I would be real careful about pushing any more. I would suspect you should feel some slide banging.

September 17, 2007, 06:57 PM	#6
Trapper L Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 804	Looks pretty warm to me. I don't find any data as high as you posted for a FMJ. I show the Speer Gold Dot at that loading but not FMJs.The highest I can find is 4.5 grs (Speer and Lyman manuals) which makes it sound like you are over max already. I'd back off and start at 4.1 and work back up. The 9mm should not have primers that are cratered and grossly flattened. If you are just loading plinkers, I'd load 4.3 grs and play with the COL from recommended length of 1.135 to max length in .005 intervals providing they will cycle thru the clip. This is how I manage to get most of my pistols to shoot under an inch at 25 yds- playing with the COL at a load just below max.

September 18, 2007, 07:13 PM	#9
kingudaroad Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Location: austin Posts: 735	Looks like a little primer cratering more than flattening. If their shooting and functioning and no other pressure signs they should be good. You might load some up with a different primer and see if they still do that, but if you do you should back off the charge and work back up.

September 18, 2007, 07:45 PM	#10
poker2112 Member Join Date: September 24, 2006 Posts: 62	anyone got a pic of flattened primers?

September 19, 2007, 04:19 PM	#12
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	They look fine to me, in the photo at least, but if your eyes say they are flattened I think you're smart in questioning your process. I believe the max load listed is 4.8 grains so you should be fine at 4.6 grains of Titegroup. I would probably go back and check your powder drops just to be sure you are really at 4.6 though . When I start my press, I usually dump the first 5 powder drops just to get things flowing - then measure the first 10 drops and until there is no variation at all ( 0.1 is a lot of variation as you know ) before I run any quantity thru my press. Static electricity, humidity, etc may all affect the way a powder drops. My press has a powder check station - but I still check about every 10th shell on a digital scale - just in case. Common problems I see on presses - are there any grains of powder sticking to the side of the powder reservoir - it means there is static. I use the "dryer sheets" - anti static, whatever my wife has laying around - and I wad up 2 of them and put them inside the factory powder storage cannister and just leave them there when I open a new can of powder / I wipe the inside and outside of the powder cannister of my press down with the anti static wipes / wipe the metal parts of it down too until there are no more flakes of powder sticking to the walls of the hopper. Think about your technique - how you drop the handle, how you raise it, are you consistent, do you hesitate anywhere, sometimes cases hang up a little if you don't use case lube ( I use case lube on all calibers, even though I run carbide dies ) it just makes thing run easier and smoother. Make sure your bench or the press itself is good and solid and not moving around. But my hunch is you might be on the high side of 4.6 ( maybe 4.7 once in a while or even 4.8 and that can be an issue).