Real world shooting vs. Range time shooting

cubuff42 · February 23, 2006, 01:47 PM

I have been reading so many posts about TFL members bragging about tight groups and etc. My question is this, how many of these people can shoot a 2" group at 25 yards with someone shooting back at them?

I have been involved in competitive trapshooting for 10 years, and they teach you to point shoot, that is, if the gun fits correctly, you look at the target and you pull the trigger, the second you try and aim you will be behind it. This is why my dad's stock company (precision fit stocks) is so successful, this is what works.

As inexperienced as I am with my USP 40F, I can tell you right now that no matter how many rounds I put through it or how consistent my groups are, everything changes in a flight or fight situation. My stance, grip, breathing, heart rate will all change immediately. But the most important factor is time, will any of us have time to acquire the target, align the sights, back to the target and then back to the front sight? I really do not think so, I think I would immediately revert to point shooting.

Now before you all have a hay day I want you to know that I know the importance of practice and consistency, I know firsthand that techniques become second nature, given the SAME situation. After running 99 straight in trap, everything is different for that final bird, it's not a situation you practice, nor can you practice, consistently.

I don't quite know why I'm going on and on but I just have a feeling that many of us are not practicing for the right situation. Very few of us will have a Lethal Weapon, Danny Glover type situation with one shot left in the cylinder and the BG at 50 yds. running away from us, we will not have all the time in the world.

Could someone please clear this up for me? I understand that with practice comes better and quicker sight/target acquisition, but what really happens in a shoot or be shot situation?

Thanks
-Tyler

SBrocker8 · February 23, 2006, 02:10 PM

I'd estimate that you're preaching mainly to the choir here. I'd just venture a guess that a lot of people who CCW practice fast draws and point shooting at close in targets. Some might even practice shooting while moving to cover...

PaulBk · February 23, 2006, 03:06 PM

Yep. There is recreational shooting and there is training.

I enjoy recreational shooting. It is fun. It is relaxing.

I don't enjoy training. It is not fun. It is not relaxing. But for CCW, it is critical. Draw from retention, moving backwards/forwards/sideways, low light/no light. None of this is 'fun' but it is necessary and I do it.

-PB

KC135 · February 23, 2006, 03:42 PM

Put it this way, if you are standing still in a self defense situation, you may be dead anyway,

and I have never seen a point shooter that could point shoot on the move. A trained shooter using sights can.

The drill should be move and shoot, where the first action is movement on your part, as you draw and start shooting.

Hopefully your awareness kept you from being caught unaware and you avoid the situation. OODA.

Al Norris · February 23, 2006, 04:39 PM

Another form of training is to obtain a flash sight picture.

Flash sight picture: From concealment, bring your gun on target (COM) and when your front sight appears anywhere in your rear sight shoot...you will hit COM every time. Remember a "slow" hit is worth 10 misses.

Dwight55 · February 23, 2006, 06:31 PM

cubuff, . . . you asked: "but what really happens in a shoot or be shot situation?

There is an unknown factor at play in any gunfight, . . . and that is the mental processes going on in each head of each participant.

The one who remains controlled and does what he/she has to do, . . . will in most cases be the survivor. The one that falls to pieces and goes into spray and pray mode, . . . most likely will not.

Mindset is the advantage, . . . it causes you to think Springmom's favorite line: "I will not be a victim", . . . it causes you to practice situational awareness, . . . it causes you to practice fighting techniques.

There really is much more, . . . but it starts with that little short distance between your two ears, . . . acquire proper training, . . . if necessary, take an anger management course, . . . practice scenarios with your shooting buddies.

Very few people are born with the "moxie" to survive deadly situations, . . . but almost any can acquire it through training.

May God bless,
Dwight

Al Norris · February 23, 2006, 07:15 PM

Yes I did, Erick.

Point shooting has it's place. Bad Breath Close place. (where'd your situational awareness go, if they are that close?)

I can, because of a lot of practice, point shoot accurately out to about 5 yards... Seven yards on a really good day! But not when I'm moving and the target is also moving! I'm trying to get the hell away by opening up the distance. The BG is presumably not standing still either. Would you?

Flash Sight Picture is the only way to take fast, aimed shots in stress situations. Period.

arnie08515 · February 24, 2006, 09:20 AM

i just read an article about a 78 year old widow who woke up to find a BG in her bedroom. She pulled open her night stand draw, picked up her S & W 38 and put two rounds in the SOB killing him instantly. The BG had a record of at least two burglaries. The women later said that her husband taught her to shot and she alway kep a Smith nearby.

Well here she is 78 years old, just awakes from a nap to find a man in her bedroom, reaches over while in bed and lets the SOB have it. So it can be done.

Archie · February 24, 2006, 04:24 PM

This subject comes up from time to time. It is expressed in different ways, but there usually seems to be a denigration of formal marksmanship training; and always a dismissal of formal competition - paper punching.

In reality, one's ability to control and accurately fire a handgun (or other weapon) does degenerate under stress. Being attacked, fired upon, slashed at with a knife or baseball bat, or just rushed by one or more very large persons dedicated to stomping one into the ground is detrimental to concentration and focus. However, this degeneration of ability is not limited to Bullseye shooters.

I can shoot fairly decent timed and rapid fire strings on the Bullseye course. I can typically hold a seven inch group at twenty-five yards, shooting five rounds in ten seconds, one-handed. Faced with an armed adversary, this group will open up somewhat. Possibly the group size will double or triple.

What about the standard 'real-world' beer can plinker? Typical groups run on the order of a foot or so at twenty-five yards. Under stress? Double or triple? Or is anyone under the impression they will shoot tighter groups when in fear of their life? If so, why does that factor not apply to Bullseye shooters?

Here's my point: Knowledge, familiarity and skill with firearms is not lost. It may be hindered under stress, but it's not gone. No skill with firearms magically grows.

The originator asked what happens in a real shoot situation. Based on the observations of several millennia of warfare, and several hundred years of law enforcement conflict; people under stress do what they've trained to do.

That includes doing nothing, by the way. If one has been trained to do nothing, that is what one will do - nothing.

February 23, 2006, 01:47 PM	#1
cubuff42 Junior Member Join Date: January 9, 2006 Location: Boulder, Colorado (I know, I know) Posts: 1	Real world shooting vs. Range time shooting I have been reading so many posts about TFL members bragging about tight groups and etc. My question is this, how many of these people can shoot a 2" group at 25 yards with someone shooting back at them? I have been involved in competitive trapshooting for 10 years, and they teach you to point shoot, that is, if the gun fits correctly, you look at the target and you pull the trigger, the second you try and aim you will be behind it. This is why my dad's stock company (precision fit stocks) is so successful, this is what works. As inexperienced as I am with my USP 40F, I can tell you right now that no matter how many rounds I put through it or how consistent my groups are, everything changes in a flight or fight situation. My stance, grip, breathing, heart rate will all change immediately. But the most important factor is time, will any of us have time to acquire the target, align the sights, back to the target and then back to the front sight? I really do not think so, I think I would immediately revert to point shooting. Now before you all have a hay day I want you to know that I know the importance of practice and consistency, I know firsthand that techniques become second nature, given the SAME situation. After running 99 straight in trap, everything is different for that final bird, it's not a situation you practice, nor can you practice, consistently. I don't quite know why I'm going on and on but I just have a feeling that many of us are not practicing for the right situation. Very few of us will have a Lethal Weapon, Danny Glover type situation with one shot left in the cylinder and the BG at 50 yds. running away from us, we will not have all the time in the world. Could someone please clear this up for me? I understand that with practice comes better and quicker sight/target acquisition, but what really happens in a shoot or be shot situation? Thanks -Tyler

February 23, 2006, 03:06 PM	#3
PaulBk Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2004 Location: Western Washington Posts: 164	Yep. There is recreational shooting and there is training. I enjoy recreational shooting. It is fun. It is relaxing. I don't enjoy training. It is not fun. It is not relaxing. But for CCW, it is critical. Draw from retention, moving backwards/forwards/sideways, low light/no light. None of this is 'fun' but it is necessary and I do it. -PB __________________ Hero's aren't born, they're cornered - According to Jim

February 23, 2006, 06:31 PM	#6
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	cubuff, . . . you asked: "but what really happens in a shoot or be shot situation? There is an unknown factor at play in any gunfight, . . . and that is the mental processes going on in each head of each participant. The one who remains controlled and does what he/she has to do, . . . will in most cases be the survivor. The one that falls to pieces and goes into spray and pray mode, . . . most likely will not. Mindset is the advantage, . . . it causes you to think Springmom's favorite line: "I will not be a victim", . . . it causes you to practice situational awareness, . . . it causes you to practice fighting techniques. There really is much more, . . . but it starts with that little short distance between your two ears, . . . acquire proper training, . . . if necessary, take an anger management course, . . . practice scenarios with your shooting buddies. Very few people are born with the "moxie" to survive deadly situations, . . . but almost any can acquire it through training. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

February 24, 2006, 04:24 PM	#9
Archie Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2000 Location: Hastings, Nebrasksa - the Hear Posts: 2,209	I don't think I get the point... This subject comes up from time to time. It is expressed in different ways, but there usually seems to be a denigration of formal marksmanship training; and always a dismissal of formal competition - paper punching. In reality, one's ability to control and accurately fire a handgun (or other weapon) does degenerate under stress. Being attacked, fired upon, slashed at with a knife or baseball bat, or just rushed by one or more very large persons dedicated to stomping one into the ground is detrimental to concentration and focus. However, this degeneration of ability is not limited to Bullseye shooters. I can shoot fairly decent timed and rapid fire strings on the Bullseye course. I can typically hold a seven inch group at twenty-five yards, shooting five rounds in ten seconds, one-handed. Faced with an armed adversary, this group will open up somewhat. Possibly the group size will double or triple. What about the standard 'real-world' beer can plinker? Typical groups run on the order of a foot or so at twenty-five yards. Under stress? Double or triple? Or is anyone under the impression they will shoot tighter groups when in fear of their life? If so, why does that factor not apply to Bullseye shooters? Here's my point: Knowledge, familiarity and skill with firearms is not lost. It may be hindered under stress, but it's not gone. No skill with firearms magically grows. The originator asked what happens in a real shoot situation. Based on the observations of several millennia of warfare, and several hundred years of law enforcement conflict; people under stress do what they've trained to do. That includes doing nothing, by the way. If one has been trained to do nothing, that is what one will do - nothing. __________________ There ain't no free lunch, except Jesus. Archie Check out updated journal at http://oldmanmontgomery.wordpress.com/

February 23, 2006, 02:10 PM	#2
SBrocker8 Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2005 Posts: 111	I'd estimate that you're preaching mainly to the choir here. I'd just venture a guess that a lot of people who CCW practice fast draws and point shooting at close in targets. Some might even practice shooting while moving to cover...

February 23, 2006, 03:42 PM	#4
KC135 Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2004 Location: Midwest Posts: 222	Put it this way, if you are standing still in a self defense situation, you may be dead anyway, and I have never seen a point shooter that could point shoot on the move. A trained shooter using sights can. The drill should be move and shoot, where the first action is movement on your part, as you draw and start shooting. Hopefully your awareness kept you from being caught unaware and you avoid the situation. OODA.

February 23, 2006, 04:39 PM	#5
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Another form of training is to obtain a flash sight picture. Flash sight picture: From concealment, bring your gun on target (COM) and when your front sight appears anywhere in your rear sight shoot...you will hit COM every time. Remember a "slow" hit is worth 10 misses.

February 23, 2006, 07:15 PM	#7
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Yes I did, Erick. Point shooting has it's place. Bad Breath Close place. (where'd your situational awareness go, if they are that close?) I can, because of a lot of practice, point shoot accurately out to about 5 yards... Seven yards on a really good day! But not when I'm moving and the target is also moving! I'm trying to get the hell away by opening up the distance. The BG is presumably not standing still either. Would you? Flash Sight Picture is the only way to take fast, aimed shots in stress situations. Period.

February 24, 2006, 09:20 AM	#8
arnie08515 Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 48	i just read an article about a 78 year old widow who woke up to find a BG in her bedroom. She pulled open her night stand draw, picked up her S & W 38 and put two rounds in the SOB killing him instantly. The BG had a record of at least two burglaries. The women later said that her husband taught her to shot and she alway kep a Smith nearby. Well here she is 78 years old, just awakes from a nap to find a man in her bedroom, reaches over while in bed and lets the SOB have it. So it can be done.