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View Poll Results: Hunch it may be stole. Buy/trade for a gun if it were a screaming good deal?
Report to police based on your 'hunch' 1 1.82%
Offer to run the serial number and/or complete bill of sale to see reaction of seller 21 38.18%
Buy or trade for the gun, no questions asked 4 7.27%
Run, don't walk, away from the deal 31 56.36%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 13, 2010, 12:17 PM   #26
paull
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Nope -- there's "legal" and there's "good business practice." This really has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment.
Sure it does...

Does "good business practice" include background checks on all firearm transactions via FFL's?
How about limiting ammo purchases?
Is Illinois' FOID a "good business practice"?
If not, why not? Seems that all of those things would have the benefit of reducing potential risk.

I'm really not trying to bust your balls, just can't quite get a grip on the logic of it all.

The old "liberty v. security" thing comes to mind.
p
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Old January 13, 2010, 12:33 PM   #27
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paull
...Does "good business practice" include background checks on all firearm transactions via FFL's?
How about limiting ammo purchases?
Is Illinois' FOID a "good business practice"?...
Nope. But good business practice, when buying a gun in a private transaction, includes both the buyer and seller properly identifying themselves to each other, providing contact information to each other, and documenting the transaction with a written bill of sale.

I might not go through that sort of rigmarole buying a card table at a garage sale. But I'd certainly be that thorough buying anything of meaningful value or something that is a popular item among thieves -- like a watch, or a piece of jewelry, or an expensive piece of art, or a computer, or a television set, or a gun.
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Old January 13, 2010, 12:50 PM   #28
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Nope. But good business practice, when buying a gun in a private transaction, includes both the buyer and seller properly identifying themselves to each other, providing contact information to each other, and documenting the transaction with a written bill of sale.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Quote:
I might not go through that sort of rigmarole buying a card table at a garage sale. But I'd certainly be that thorough buying anything of meaningful value or something that is a popular item among thieves -- like a watch, or a piece of jewelry, or an expensive piece of art, or a computer, or a television set, or a gun.
Really..?
If I put an add in the local paper, or website, for
Quote:
a watch, or a piece of jewelry, or an expensive piece of art, or a computer, or a television set, or a gun
, you would require
Quote:
both the buyer and seller properly identifying themselves to each other, providing contact information to each other, and documenting the transaction with a written bill of sale.
?

I've enjoyed our conversation.
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Old January 13, 2010, 12:53 PM   #29
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paull
Really..?
If I put an add in the local paper, or website, for....

I would require ID and a receipt, yes. If I'm spending more than $50, maybe $75, then yes, I want some assurances.
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Old January 13, 2010, 01:46 PM   #30
Evan Thomas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paull
Really..?
If I put an add in the local paper, or website, for....
I would require ID and a receipt, yes. If I'm spending more than $50, maybe $75, then yes, I want some assurances.
Indeed.

And without a receipt, if the jewelry, art, TV, etc., were to be stolen from you, you'd have a hard time collecting from your insurance company...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paull
I'd like to see it become common (again) for people to trade their wares without excessive restrictions.
It's a nice, romantic idea to "return" to some mythical Good Old Days in which we all trusted each other implicitly, our word was our bond, and so forth -- but ya know what? Ever since writing was first invented, and involved a stylus and a clay tablet, sensible people have asked for receipts. Just ask any archaeologist...
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Old January 13, 2010, 01:57 PM   #31
paull
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And without a receipt, if the jewelry, art, TV, etc., were to be stolen from you, you'd have a hard time collecting from your insurance company...
Baloney.

Pizza...
Quote:
I would require ID and a receipt, yes.
So why not support legislation regarding this..?
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Old January 13, 2010, 02:22 PM   #32
Brian Pfleuger
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Originally Posted by paull
So why not support legislation regarding this..?
Because it's a personal choice. I don't care if you do it or not. It's your life, your time, your chances, your money.

I never said, or meant to imply, that anyone besides me should do it.

Do I think that it's logical? Wise? Due diligence? Yep.

Do I care if you do it? Nope.

I look both ways when I cross the street too... but it doesn't matter to me if you do or not. As a matter of fact, when I'm driving I assume that any given pedestrian WON'T look. Doesn't change the fact that I will look.
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Old January 13, 2010, 03:29 PM   #33
Evan Thomas
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Originally Posted by paull
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanya
And without a receipt, if the jewelry, art, TV, etc., were to be stolen from you, you'd have a hard time collecting from your insurance company...
Baloney.
You think?

Sure, if you have a comprehensive, up-to-date inventory including photos or videos, along with records of serial numbers, and professional appraisals of big-ticket items like jewelry and art -- and if your guns, jewelry, or whatever, are covered by separate riders, you'll probably have given your insurance agent copies of all that before the fact. But failing that, if you want the claim settled promptly, for the full value of your property, having receipts which include the model and serial numbers is your best protection.

The insurance company isn't just gonna take your word for it as to what was stolen...
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Old January 13, 2010, 03:33 PM   #34
leadcounsel
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At this point, over 1/2 voted they would run away from a screaming good deal on a firearm. But what if that was the only indication that it might be stolen?

What if the same seller was selling the same item at a price more in line with the actual value. Would the buyer, without the benefit of the warning of a low asking price, buy the same item without worry? Stated differently, is the selling price that big of a deal?

In FTF transactions I ask for ID and the usual questions to ascertain information about the seller and the item. Sometimes I get a bill of sale and sometimes I don't. It used to be more important to me than it is now.

However, when I go to a yard sale and see a valuable X item marked really low, I don't question it's origination. If I want it I buy it. Some of these items could theoretically have been stolen, or heck even sold by a family member that isn't the true owner.

Bottom line is that I don't think we should fall prey to treating guns with some mystical properties like we have been brainwashed to do. Guns are purely objects. Until recently they didn't have serial numbers and background checks were not needed. You could walk into a hardware store and buy 'em up by the handful with no questions asked. I try to resist the urge to treat them differently when buying and selling, but sometimes I fall back into the mindset of a bill of sale, and sometimes I don't.

I'm also a fan of no-paper trails if possible.
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Old January 13, 2010, 04:53 PM   #35
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel
However, when I go to a yard sale and see a valuable X item marked really low, I don't question it's origination. If I want it I buy it. Some of these items could theoretically have been stolen, or heck even sold by a family member that isn't the true owner.
I'm not sure why the whole yard/garage sale thing keeps popping up. The fact that an item is at a very public and at least mildly advertised event, not to mention at a persons house, pretty much takes care of an awful lot of questions in my mind. It really has no relevance to the OP, at least for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel
What if the same seller was selling the same item at a price more in line with the actual value. Would the buyer, without the benefit of the warning of a low asking price, buy the same item without worry? Stated differently, is the selling price that big of a deal?
For me, it has no bearing on price, except that I'm willing to take the chance on small ticket items.

If I'm buying a gun then I'm getting ID and a receipt. Period, end of story. If you refuse or seem suspect in any way, I'm gone. Price has no bearing in a firearms purchase, high or low dollar.
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Old January 13, 2010, 05:16 PM   #36
paull
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The fact that an item is at a very public and at least mildly advertised event, not to mention at a persons house, pretty much takes care of an awful lot of questions in my mind.
Quote:
If I'm buying a gun then I'm getting ID and a receipt. Period, end of story. If you refuse or seem suspect in any way, I'm gone. Price has no bearing in a firearms purchase, high or low dollar.
Not sure how you rectify these two statements, PK...

It is very apparent that we will not conduct any FTF firearm transactions between ourselves.

By the way, I'm ALWAYS willing to have the buyer swing by the house if they wish.
It just seems to work out that we end up meeting somewhere in town.
I have had folks come by my office to see or show a gun.

Always a pleasure picking minds here.
p

Last edited by paull; January 13, 2010 at 05:18 PM. Reason: speeling
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Old January 13, 2010, 05:24 PM   #37
paull
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Vanya...
Quote:
Sure, if you have a comprehensive, up-to-date inventory including photos or videos, along with records of serial numbers, and professional appraisals of big-ticket items like jewelry and art -- and if your guns, jewelry, or whatever, are covered by separate riders, you'll probably have given your insurance agent copies of all that before the fact. But failing that, if you want the claim settled promptly, for the full value of your property, having receipts which include the model and serial numbers is your best protection.

The insurance company isn't just gonna take your word for it as to what was stolen...
Exactly!
I do not believe that my insurance company is going to believe my hand-written receipt any more than my word.

When I was 20 y/o, I had little of value and cared little if it was covered.
I'm pushing 50 now and have aquired many things. I also care for my things better than I did as a kid, and make sure that I have adequate coverage.
p
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Old January 13, 2010, 05:37 PM   #38
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paull
Not sure how you rectify these two statements, PK...

It is very apparent that we will not conduct any FTF firearm transactions between ourselves.

I've never bought a gun at a garage sale, that how.

Actually, I've never bought a gun from anyone except a dealer. If I did, it would include ID and a receipt.

I will confess that, under the right circumstances, I might buy a gun at a garage sale and not insist on a receipt or ID. You have to realize where I live though. This is "the boonies". Any garage sale is likely to be a little old couple who have lived in that house for 50 years and spend their summers sitting in the front yard doing a nearly endless sale day after day after day... they're not hard to find if you ever need them again.
In that case, maybe I might buy a shotgun or an old rifle from the old guy. He's not likely to be the one offering the smoking deal on a brand new hand gun that he's just GOT to get rid of to pay bills.

However, the MUCH more typical scenario just happened to me this last summer..... a rather beat up minivan with no exhaust comes into my parking lot. A rather beat up old lady, probably with too much exhaust, wants to sell me a gun because "we really need the money". She pulls out this $175 "Wal*Mart Special" pump 12ga in a $19.95 plastic case and tells me that it's a $500 gun and a $150 case and it's only been shot once.... and she really doesn't want to but she'll let it go for $300 because they need to pay the car insurance. Riiiiiiight. I say "No thanks.", suddenly, it's only $250, then $200, still I say no. $175? No.

If that was a $4000 O/U shotgun and she wanted $200 for it I wouldn't have touched it without ID and a receipt, not to mention a check on the serial from my sheriff's deputy buddy. No way, no how.
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; January 13, 2010 at 07:41 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old January 13, 2010, 06:35 PM   #39
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It seems that i hold the minority opinion on this issue.

^^^ Would you guys look at a garage sale much differently than a gun show? It's a publicly announced sale, with deputies at the door, but i am not familiar with any sort of validation process that sellers are required to undergo to participate.

I've bought one firearm without going through an FFL; it was a reasonably priced rifle at a gun show, from an individual's collection. Dude had a table full & seemed to be accepted as a "regular" by the nearby sellers. Dude also copied my ID for his file & asked if i was prohibited from buying firearms, IIRC. I'm comfortable with that situation. I bought some ammo & magazines as well; should i have gotten a bill of sale on the mags as "gun parts"?

Honestly, if it turned out that rifle were stolen, i would try to get it returned to the rightful owner, and would provide all the information i have on the person who sold it to me (date from visa receipt for same day ammo purchase, physical description, and booth location).
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Old January 13, 2010, 09:53 PM   #40
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by paull
...If I put an add in the local paper, or website...
What would that have to do with anything? I've no doubt that stolen or counterfeit (in the case of, for example, an expensive watch or painting) have been sold through newspaper or Internet advertisements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel
...I don't think we should fall prey to treating guns with some mystical properties like we have been brainwashed to do. Guns are purely objects...
But when buying from an individual, a stranger, different types of objects may well warrant different types of due diligence. Guns, for example, are popular targets for thieves, are sometimes used in crimes and, after being used for criminal purposes, are sometimes sold as a means of disposing of them. Jewelry may be phony, and collectibles (including collectible guns) are sometimes faked. Expensive watches may be counterfeit or stolen. These are all simply objects, but the uncertainties are different.
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Old January 13, 2010, 10:47 PM   #41
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It wouldn't be impossible for many people, including posters here who are adament that the go through all the checks, to inadvertently have a stolen gun in their collection EVEN IF THEY GO THROUGH A DEALER OR GET SOMEONES NAME/ID, ETC.. How is this possible? Well I personally had a revolver stolen from me years ago. That was back before I recorded serial numbers religiously. Guess what. I reported a revolver stolen. Could be in your collection of used revolvers!

So a point I'm trying to make is that you really CAN'T always know for sure. And the same is true with the sale of other items on craigslist, yard sales, ebay, etc.

So - why are guns any different? Is it because you can kill someone with a gun? I've seen expensive baseball bats (aluminum ones) stolen from sporting goods stores and sold on the side. They make fine weapons. No serial numbers there.
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Old January 13, 2010, 11:17 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel
It wouldn't be impossible for many people, including posters here who are adament that the go through all the checks, to inadvertently have a stolen gun in their collection ...you really CAN'T always know for sure. And the same is true with the sale of other items on craigslist, yard sales, ebay, etc...
That's true. One can't entirely eliminate risk. BUT one can minimize risk, and, perhaps, preserve some degree of recourse.

Appropriate due diligence isn't perfect, but it is prudent.
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Old January 14, 2010, 08:26 AM   #43
paull
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Appropriate due diligence isn't perfect, but it is prudent.
It would be silly for me to keep arguing the point, but...

Let's say you saw a gun advertised on this site.
By a member of long and good standing.
It is a model you have coveted for some time and the price is reasonable.
He/she lives near your town.
You have numerous conversations via PM, email, and telephone; regarding the options for payment and delivery.
It is decided that you will meet at an his/her office.
You are greeted by a person that identifies themselves, verbally, as the person you have been conversing with.
You sit in their office discussing gun stuff and chit-chatting.
You notice the diplomas and certificates on the walls match, by name apparently, the person to whom you are speaking.
The person's secretary or nurse buzzes in to say that there is a call waiting or a patient that needs attention.
You are asked to wait in the lobby/waiting room for a few minutes, while business is conducted.
After a short wait, you are invited back into the office and complete the transaction.
The seller does not offer a receipt, and when asked, states, smiling, that "I'm one of those whacko militia guys that doesn't do the paper-trail thing".
You leave w/o the gun?

p
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Old January 14, 2010, 08:39 AM   #44
earlthegoat2
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Id run from the sale for purely selfish reasons. I dont want my gun being impounded somewhere down the line.

The secondary reason is I dont want to be arrested.
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Old January 14, 2010, 10:28 AM   #45
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by paull
It would be silly for me to keep arguing the point,...
Yes, it is. Have a nice life.
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Old January 14, 2010, 10:45 AM   #46
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paull
It would be silly for me to keep arguing the point, but...
It's the same sort of argument wherein someone can come up with a scenario, no matter how unlikely, to support any point.

Are there one in a million, or even one in a thousand, exceptions? Yes.

The other 999 times out of that thousand, I want a receipt and ID. Considering that I am unlikely to buy more than 10 or 15 guns, tops, in my entire life, and most or all of them from a dealer, it's sort of a mute point in my world.
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