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Old April 3, 2010, 09:41 PM   #1
l98ster
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Good Day At The Range!! PICS!!

Hi Everyone:
I have been working up some new 38 special loads, and these are my best so far. I would love to get everyones opinion / comment / advice that you may have. My questions is should I keep trying to get it better, or is this realistically the best that can be had (i know that is subjective)!

Each target has 6 shots. All groups were made from a 6" Colt Python. All groups used 148gr Remington HBWC.


1st pic: 3.3gr WW231, winchester primers:

DSC00151.jpg


2nd pic: 2.7gr Bullseye, winchester primers

DSC00152.jpg

3rd pic: 2.8gr titegroup, winchester primers

DSC00153.jpg


All groups were shot at 15 yards, off a rest. Each target is a 2" circle
Opinions anyone?????

-George
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Old April 3, 2010, 11:48 PM   #2
Sevens
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Here is a trick you might try--

Find a way to mark a cylinder. You need mark only one of them. Maybe a felt tip pen or a tiny piece of tape... something, anything that won't permanently mark a gorgeous Python, but mark it somehow so you can find that one chamber each time.

Then, take your best handloads and load up a cylinder. Line up your marked chamber so that it's ALWAYS going to be the first shot.

Have six bulls on your paper and make that marked cylinder your first bull, and move across the target with each shot -- point being, make sure that EACH cylinder is being fired each time at the same bull.

See if that tightens up your groups, or if they are just the same. Revolvers are odd in that each cylinder has the chance at being just a hair different than the others. Doesn't mean it HAS to be that way, and for most applications from a handgun, normal people wouldn't EVER know it if one or two cylinders were off a touch.

Your groups look awfully good to me... but could they be better for .38 Special wadcutter target loads? Don't want to be mean -- but yeah they could! Target wadcutters in .38 Special might be the most accurate, repeatable load out of any revolver. But the accuracy you are showing on that target ought to make anyone happy.
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Old April 4, 2010, 12:09 AM   #3
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that sounds like a good idea (and a pain in the ass). i would assume that at the end of this type of test, I would actually be able to see which chambers shoot better than others? If I can determine which chamber is most accurate, how can i use that information for better loads? I have to admit that it would be interesting to find out.

Thanks for the reply!!
-George
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Old April 4, 2010, 12:15 AM   #4
Sevens
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I really doubt you could use the information for better loads -- although, if you find that bull #4 is tighter than all the other bulls, then you can repeat the test for the W231, or the Titegroup or the Bullseye, and see if your #4 gets even better. Or try the next obvious powder for target loads... some HP-38 maybe, or AA#2? (other suggestions anyone?)

Next up, you can try using different primers.

After that, find a buddy whom you KNOW is a helluva shot, then have HIM repeat your tests.

At some point, you'll have to say, "I've wrung as much out of this as I can!" and be happy with what you've got!

If that was my target, I would likely have found that pinnacle after the first run with W231!
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Old April 4, 2010, 12:30 AM   #5
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That's the trick I used to do too - mark the chamber and only fire one chamber ... major PITA, essentially turning my mod 66 into single shot gun but great groups :-)
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Old April 4, 2010, 06:47 AM   #6
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Very nice shooting in my opinion. I'd be real happy with that kind of performance.
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Old April 4, 2010, 11:27 PM   #7
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bump
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Old April 4, 2010, 11:41 PM   #8
MedicMan218
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Those holes look like they were made with a hole punch! LOL
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Old April 5, 2010, 07:16 AM   #9
Sevens
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Never shot full wadcutters before, MedicMan? That's the whole point! Makes it very precise for match target scoring.
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Old April 5, 2010, 07:06 PM   #10
floydster
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Hummm, I shoot a lot of wadcutters but never have clean holes like that, could U please tell me the secret and what I am missing.
Thanks, Floyd
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Old April 5, 2010, 10:13 PM   #11
10 Spot Terminator
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I cant help but notice all of your powder weights run not only lite but actually are under the recommended starting load weights in my Lyman 48th editon manual. Are you loading for a snubby ? I would be afraid of a squib in my K38-6 in. ,,, it has shown me best perfomance with loads warmer than what you show with the Bullseye and the 231 , havent tried tightgroup though. All your groups look to be very respectable indeed ! If it aint broke dont fix it !!! 10 Spot
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Old April 5, 2010, 10:20 PM   #12
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For years I settled on 2.7 grns of Bullseye, 148 grn HBWC as my everyday practice load for my Python. Loaded 100's, maybe over 1000. Thanks for reminding me how much I liked the load for short range plinking or just working on trigger pull, etc.
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Old April 5, 2010, 11:21 PM   #13
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Pardon me, [yawn]......

It looks good, but it's only 15 yards. I'm glad you're excited and don't want to rain on your joy. But heck, my .45 Vaquero has done similar the few times I've shot it at that range too. I don't think 15 yard groups mean squat, myself. I do praise you for your six-shot groups though. I've always felt a five shot group from a six-shooter was negligence at best and deceptive of a sixguns actual performance. 25 yards is a lot more meaningful. Move back and your groups will doubtless open up considerably. I would expect that your Python will out group my Vaquero every time at 25, 35, and 50 yards; but again, your 15 yard groups don't prove squat to me. If you have to shoot a grouse, OK, you can get real close to them without any difficulty. May I presume your Python is a .357? If I had a .357 I would probably focus on cast 180's at 25 to 50 yards and full power in case of bear or deer. I'd still have some light, "target", loads for small game. But I would probably shoot more of the heavier loads to keep proficient with them. Show me some groups at 25, 35, and 50 yards so I can get envious.
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Old April 6, 2010, 06:13 AM   #14
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You guys are tough. I thought they looked pretty darn good.
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Old April 6, 2010, 06:43 AM   #15
MrBorland
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Quote:
You guys are tough. I thought they looked pretty darn good.
Yeah, they do look good, but keep in mind, these are target loads, shot from a Python, off a rest at 15 yards. Under those conditions, IMHO, 1/2" cloverleafs ought to be possible. Not trying to be critical, just pointing out that there's likely untapped potential there if one wants to dig further.
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Old April 6, 2010, 04:26 PM   #16
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Of course they look good.

And they's are plenty of fellers can spit that far without a tail-wind too.
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Old April 7, 2010, 09:22 PM   #17
l98ster
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MrBorland,

Thats precisely why I posted these pics. My question was whether or not these can get any better. With groups like this, I dont know if my shooting has to get better, or my loads have to get better for 1/2" clovers. I would love to shoot these loads from a ransom rest, but that thing is way to expensive!!!

Im not sure why anyone would take the time out of their day to NON CONSTRUCTIVELY critisize these groups because they were only at 15 yards. There is no sense in shooting 25 yard groups, if I cant get them good at 15!!!

The whole point was to get some CONSTRUCTIVE critisism so I can improve my shooting. THANKS to all that helped!!!

-George
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Old April 7, 2010, 09:26 PM   #18
l98ster
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Quote:
but again, your 15 yard groups don't prove squat to me.
Pathfinder,
Then its a good thing im not trying to prove anything to you!!!!
-George
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Old April 8, 2010, 05:40 AM   #19
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15 yards is shy of our local indoor range of 50 ft. Alot of guys use this range for league match shooting. I think that your groups look ok, I have seen a lot worse at the indoor range, but I also think you will learn a lot more about your loads potential accuracy at 25 yards. A friend had a Python and I had a chance to shoot it quite often. It hooked me on revolvers. One thing about the std. sight system is that it has a fairly large rear notch and wide front blade so duplicating shots is a real challenge with the sights. Take a buddy who is a pretty good shot with you and see how he does.
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Old April 8, 2010, 06:51 AM   #20
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A couple of comments

First, I have to agree that groups on these 2" targets are not bad, but also not really that exciting. The accuracy standard for handguns is usually 2" at 25 yards, and target guns are usually much better. The bullets themselves are probably capable of something like ½" at 25 yards out of a test barrel. The best group I ever shot at 25 yards with a revolver was under 3/4" at 25 yards with all six chambers of a scoped Redhawk using a rest and Hornady 240 grain JHPs with a light load of Bullseye. That wasn't a fluke, since I could keep them under an inch, easy. A LOT of the accuracy issue is the sight picture, and that scope helps a lot. My little Sig auto-loader will make 1½" groups from a rest at 25 yards with factory 357 Sig ammo, and it is NOT a target gun.

So, there is PROBABLY room for improvement, BUT, why do you want it to be better? If only for bragging rights, then there is really no limit as to what is good enough. SOMEBODY will ALWAYS chime in with an annecdote about some tiny group that he MIGHT have actually shot sometime in his life. So, I suggest that you ask what YOU want from your ammo. Would you really like to hit the X-ring at 50 yards in bullseye pistol matches (i.e., using one hand)? If so, then you want ammo that doesn't contribute much of the dispersion that you see at the target, which comes MOSTLY from YOUR muscles wobbling slightly as you hold the gun out there. Or, do you intend to hunt small game with these light loads. Then you should be thinking about "minute of rabbit" at your likely shooting distances. I think you already have "minute of tin can" ammo there. It is probably as good or better than non-"match" wadcutter ammo you can buy at the store.

Of course, groups with lightly charged wadcutter loads really say nothing about accuracy of either the gun or you with full power hunting loads. So, it is pointless to think about these groups in terms of deer hunting.

The second comment has to do with the potential for different chambers in a revolver cylinder to shoot to different points of impact for the same point of aim. Some revolvers do have problems like that. So, once you have a load that shoots decent groups, I think it IS worthwile to test your gun for point of impact for each individual chamber. The value is that, if you find one of more that does NOT hit the same POI as the others, you can MAYBE correct it (or them) if it is a matter of different throat diameters, but can SURELY avoid using it in a hunting situation. For bullseye matches, you can even avoid using ONE chamber that shoots to a different POI, since you are shooting 5 shots with a 6-shooter.

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Old April 8, 2010, 11:47 PM   #21
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Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

I am sure your Python will out-shoot my 4-5/8" Vaquero. Any time I can get my groups under 3" at 25 yards is a good day. Have fun but don't put much stock in 15 yard groups. My guess is that your Python at 50 yards will group as good as my Vaquero will at 25 yards. I mainly meant to encourage you to extend your horizon a little. Your intended purpose for your Python is probably somewhat different than mine. If I had a .357, I would mostly go with 180 grain cast bullets with wide flat points over heavy charges of AA-9 for general use and the same bullet over lighter charges of Titegroup for practice. I like to stay with one bullet weight because I prefer fixed-sight single-actions. If you shoot at a, "range", you're limited by the distance available. I shoot in the woods where we make up our own rules as we go. Happy shooting; and again, sorry I came across poorly.
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Old April 9, 2010, 02:53 PM   #22
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Pathfinder,

Thank you for your reply. I basically use all my guns for target shooting. Just about everything I load is very light. I bought my python because of its looks, reputation and performance. The chances of it seeing "heavy" use is slim. I will use my GP100 or Blackhawk for heavy loads as needed.

I totally enjoy trying to get the best groups I can. I love experimenting with new loads, techniques, etc... I think that is the best part of shooting for me. Pulling the trigger is just the icing on the cake.

-George
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Old April 9, 2010, 03:48 PM   #23
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looking good!

I love the clean wadcutter punch effect...

I recently switched to RNFP in my .40 reloads due to availability and my .40 strikes look like .22 holes Ah well. Thx for sharing
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Old April 9, 2010, 04:16 PM   #24
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I've read quite a bit about 1/2" groups at 25 yards, but have never seen any pictures. Anybody have any they can post?
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