HK P7 not grouping well

Boydster · January 13, 2012, 11:37 PM

A while back, I purchased an HK p7, allegedly a grade A, with the expectation that it would be a very accurate shooter.

I shot it along with my nephew's Ruger 9mm, and as hard as this may be to believe, the P7 didn't group nearly as well as the Ruger. Some of the difference could be me not being accustomed to the squeeze cocker, but I can't believe it would make that much difference.

A local gunsmith looked at it - he admitted that HK's weren't his specialty, but didn't see anything obviously wrong with it. He suggested I give the barrel a good cleaning to remove any metal fouling, which I did.

I have tried both Remington & Winchester 115 gr. bullets, but am not satisfied. Is it possible that the barrel isn't broken in yet? I plan on shooting some different brands of ammo to see if that helps, but in the meantime does anyone have any ideas or suggestions of what may be going on with the pistol?

Adamantium · January 13, 2012, 11:50 PM

What method are you using to test for accuracy? Sandbag rest, prone, free style, etc? Also when you say poor group size, what size and from what distance?

Boydster · January 13, 2012, 11:57 PM

I was shooting both pistols offhand & didn't measure the group sizes, but the Ruger was shooting groups about 1/2 the size of the P7.

I will try to do more shooting Sunday and be more precise in describing the situation. Hopefully I haven't been premature in posting without the additional information.

HKFan9 · January 13, 2012, 11:59 PM

Problem most likely is the shooter not the handgun.... might not fit your hands right. I love my P7 but its certainly not everyone's cup of tea... but they are well regarded in the accuracy department. No offense to you.. I can't shoot a Glock to save my life... so I would guess its the shooter influencing the gun.

noorked · January 14, 2012, 12:24 AM

I would try some 9mm NATO 124gr bullets. My p7 prefers them over the 115

C0untZer0 · January 14, 2012, 12:50 AM

My P7M8 has always been extremely accurate. More accurate than a lot of larger guns.

When Dean Grennell and Wiley Clapp evaluated the P7s they were testing at 25 yards from bench rest and getting 2.75" groups with Winchester Silvertips and 3.25" with Federal 115gr

Unless you fire from a bench rest I don't think you'll be able to draw any conclusions.

Willie Lowman · January 14, 2012, 01:19 AM

If you decide you don't want that P7, I'll take it off your hands, cheap.

Paul K · January 14, 2012, 02:50 AM

The cocking of the gun is part of the accuracy- it takes some force to cock it but almost half to keep it cocked. Try letting up on the grip to take the additional fatigue off your hands which will cause your hands/arms to shake & be sure to maintain a full grip at all times. The trigger has the length of travel between a Glock and a 1911. It breaks clean like a 1911 but there is more travel so you need to make sure that the pad of your finger is set up so that it's movement does not bring your gun off target. You also need to make sure that your movement is consistent. Have you tried dry firing to see if you are jerking the trigger or anticipating recoil?

The P7 is a rare bird in the fact it ranks among the most accurate handguns in the world but with its short sight radius and unique mechanicals, it will be ruthlessly revealing of any flaws the user inputs. Try thinking of the gun as a fine surgeons scalpel rather than a knife.

Hope this helps.

MrBorland · January 14, 2012, 03:37 AM

Quote:

When Dean Grennell and Wiley Clapp evaluated the P7s they were testing at 25 yards from bench rest and getting 2.75" groups with Winchester Silvertips and 3.25" with Federal 115gr

Eh...so did they conclude it was an accurate or inaccurate gun?

A gun that shoots 3" from a bench rest is the latter, in my book. I'd expect a P7 to be much more accurate.

As to the OP's P7, I suggest having someone else, who you know to be a good shot, shoot it. Try a variety of ammo as well.

Quote:

with its short sight radius and unique mechanicals, it will be ruthlessly revealing of any flaws the user inputs.

This has been my (albeit it limited) experience with the P7. I've shot one a few times. The first, like any new gun, I paid particular attention to the fundamentals, and was astounded by it's accuracy. But I quickly got cocky, I guess, and subconsciously a hair less rigid with the fundamentals, and the groups quickly opened up.

mete · January 14, 2012, 04:07 AM

The pistol has a barrel rigidly attached to the frame which makes for easy accuracy. Mine gave 1.25" groups from a rest at 25 yds - not unusual for P7s !! I does have a rather short sight radius though. The trigger is excellent near 4 lbs .

Seaman · January 14, 2012, 09:06 AM

Its not always the shooter.

With a quality made fixed barrel you should get at least 1 inch groups. Have an Interarms PPK that was giving me 4-5 inch groups. Couldn't believe it. Gun was pristine with a beautiful barrel. But my early 1930s PPK was giving me 1 inch groups. Finally, re-barreled it with a new barrel...and it shoots as well as my older PPK.

Have 2 new identical Romanian TT-33s, one shoots 1 inch groups and the other shoots 4 inch groups, you can guess which is the carry gun and which is the parts gun. Had an S&W 29, etc. etc. Sold it. I collect Walther M4s, the prettiest one shoots the worst, but I keep it because its beautiful and has documented WW1 history.

If you can get your hands on another P7 you will find out pretty quick where the problem is.

Its not always the shooter.

Adamantium · January 14, 2012, 09:28 AM

I agree it is not always the shooter as well. But it would help you along to shoot from a sandbag rest. Even when I shoot a poor group from a sandbag I have a pretty good idea if it was me or the gun.

derekb · January 14, 2012, 09:31 AM

If I'm shooting poorly with my P7, I know it's my fault.

C0untZer0 · January 14, 2012, 09:49 AM

When Dean Grennell and Wiley Clapp evaluated the P7s they were getting 2.00" groups with their handloads.

HKGuns · January 14, 2012, 09:54 AM

Quote:

I was shooting both pistols offhand & didn't measure the group sizes, but the Ruger was shooting groups about 1/2 the size of the P7.

Seriously? You post about a pistol's accuracy when you're shooting off hand and didn't measure the group?

The P7 is one of THE most accurate pistols ever produced. I don't know how you can judge anything based on how you "tested" it. Barrel broken in? Come on now.

Boydster · January 14, 2012, 10:01 AM

I appreciate all the comments - I will try shooting from a bench with some different brands, and pay more attention to my grip.

If that doesn't work out, I will get with someone that also has a P7. That should quickly reveal if the problem is with the gun or the shooter.

Boydster · January 14, 2012, 10:35 AM

Quote:

I don't know how you can judge anything based on how you "tested" it.

Shooting two pistols with multiple brands of ammunition, under the same conditions and comparing the relative group sizes, seems reasonable enough.

Seaman · January 14, 2012, 10:43 AM

"I shot it along with my nephew's Ruger 9mm." [Boydster]

Sounds like a fair test to me.

I have a simple rule, if a gun shoots accurately for me in that first mag (or cylinder) I keep it. If not, I sell or trade it. Life is too short to 'learn' how to shoot a particular gun. I prefer a natural shooter.

You wanna hang onto that Ruger.

Boydster · January 14, 2012, 11:25 AM

Quote:

You wanna hang onto that Ruger.

I really wish I could - the problem is that my nephew is the most fanatical person I have ever seen when it comes to firearms. Every time I have offered to buy anything from him, he refuses before I can even finish getting the words out of my mouth.

KLRANGL · January 14, 2012, 12:36 PM

My P7 shoots 115gr just fine, but it was optimized for 124 NATO.

I know it is an "A-Grade" but did you buy it straight from a retailer (not consignment) or a private individual? It might have come in the country as an A-Grade, but use over time might have worn a few things. I replaced almost all the springs on mine when I had it refinished, but that was for reliability not accuracy.

HKGuns · January 14, 2012, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Shooting two pistols with multiple brands of ammunition, under the same conditions and comparing the relative group sizes, seems reasonable enough.

I'm not surprised. I'll give you $100 for that inaccurate P7 and you can keep the Ruger.

loose_holster_dan · January 14, 2012, 05:14 PM

try shooting the p7 without really aiming. just point your arm. that's where the p7 shines. go from low ready, pull up, and fire when it feels right. you will be amazed. it's a combat weapon, not a range gun.

Pilot · January 14, 2012, 05:18 PM

While I agree the P7 is a great combat handgun. Low felt recoil, little muzzle rise, great trigger, instinctively points, it is also a VERY ACCURATE aimed range gun. It is right up there with my longer barrelled centerfire handguns in 9MM, like my BHP, and CZ-75's.

There is either something terribly wrong with the OP's P7 or he is not shooting it properly.

Boydster · January 14, 2012, 06:04 PM

Quote:

I know it is an "A-Grade" but...

Good point - it was purchased from a dealer, so cannot say exactly how many rounds it has had through it since being graded. I plan on shooting it from a bench tomorrow and will follow up with some of the other suggestions made here (the helpful ones, that is & not the low ball offers to purchase it). I have already found a co-worker that has two, as well as another local gunsmith who owns one.

Ace_Breaker · January 15, 2012, 12:19 AM

I would not imagine it being the gun. It may just be how the shooter interacts with that specific weapon. For some reason I am more accurate with some handguns than with others. A different shooter with the same guns might have different results. For the most part my P7's have been some of the most accurate of my guns, for me. I shoot my Glock 26 more accurate than my Glock 34. My 92fs more accurate than the P9s .45. My P7 PSP better than my P7m8 and so on.

January 13, 2012, 11:37 PM	#1
Boydster Junior Member Join Date: January 13, 2012 Posts: 6	HK P7 not grouping well A while back, I purchased an HK p7, allegedly a grade A, with the expectation that it would be a very accurate shooter. I shot it along with my nephew's Ruger 9mm, and as hard as this may be to believe, the P7 didn't group nearly as well as the Ruger. Some of the difference could be me not being accustomed to the squeeze cocker, but I can't believe it would make that much difference. A local gunsmith looked at it - he admitted that HK's weren't his specialty, but didn't see anything obviously wrong with it. He suggested I give the barrel a good cleaning to remove any metal fouling, which I did. I have tried both Remington & Winchester 115 gr. bullets, but am not satisfied. Is it possible that the barrel isn't broken in yet? I plan on shooting some different brands of ammo to see if that helps, but in the meantime does anyone have any ideas or suggestions of what may be going on with the pistol?

January 13, 2012, 11:50 PM	#2
Adamantium Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 1999 Location: El Paso, TX Posts: 1,021	What method are you using to test for accuracy? Sandbag rest, prone, free style, etc? Also when you say poor group size, what size and from what distance? __________________ New gun, same ol' shot.

January 14, 2012, 12:24 AM	#5
noorked Member Join Date: November 30, 2011 Posts: 49	I would try some 9mm NATO 124gr bullets. My p7 prefers them over the 115 __________________ mostly CZs & HKs

January 14, 2012, 01:19 AM	#7
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	If you decide you don't want that P7, I'll take it off your hands, cheap. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

January 14, 2012, 04:07 AM	#10
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	The pistol has a barrel rigidly attached to the frame which makes for easy accuracy. Mine gave 1.25" groups from a rest at 25 yds - not unusual for P7s !! I does have a rather short sight radius though. The trigger is excellent near 4 lbs . __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

January 13, 2012, 11:57 PM	#3
Boydster Junior Member Join Date: January 13, 2012 Posts: 6	I was shooting both pistols offhand & didn't measure the group sizes, but the Ruger was shooting groups about 1/2 the size of the P7. I will try to do more shooting Sunday and be more precise in describing the situation. Hopefully I haven't been premature in posting without the additional information.

January 13, 2012, 11:59 PM	#4
HKFan9 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2008 Posts: 3,057	Problem most likely is the shooter not the handgun.... might not fit your hands right. I love my P7 but its certainly not everyone's cup of tea... but they are well regarded in the accuracy department. No offense to you.. I can't shoot a Glock to save my life... so I would guess its the shooter influencing the gun.

January 14, 2012, 12:50 AM	#6
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	My P7M8 has always been extremely accurate. More accurate than a lot of larger guns. When Dean Grennell and Wiley Clapp evaluated the P7s they were testing at 25 yards from bench rest and getting 2.75" groups with Winchester Silvertips and 3.25" with Federal 115gr Unless you fire from a bench rest I don't think you'll be able to draw any conclusions.

January 14, 2012, 02:50 AM	#8
Paul K Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 674	The cocking of the gun is part of the accuracy- it takes some force to cock it but almost half to keep it cocked. Try letting up on the grip to take the additional fatigue off your hands which will cause your hands/arms to shake & be sure to maintain a full grip at all times. The trigger has the length of travel between a Glock and a 1911. It breaks clean like a 1911 but there is more travel so you need to make sure that the pad of your finger is set up so that it's movement does not bring your gun off target. You also need to make sure that your movement is consistent. Have you tried dry firing to see if you are jerking the trigger or anticipating recoil? The P7 is a rare bird in the fact it ranks among the most accurate handguns in the world but with its short sight radius and unique mechanicals, it will be ruthlessly revealing of any flaws the user inputs. Try thinking of the gun as a fine surgeons scalpel rather than a knife. Hope this helps.

January 14, 2012, 09:06 AM	#11
Seaman Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2011 Posts: 654	Its not always the shooter. With a quality made fixed barrel you should get at least 1 inch groups. Have an Interarms PPK that was giving me 4-5 inch groups. Couldn't believe it. Gun was pristine with a beautiful barrel. But my early 1930s PPK was giving me 1 inch groups. Finally, re-barreled it with a new barrel...and it shoots as well as my older PPK. Have 2 new identical Romanian TT-33s, one shoots 1 inch groups and the other shoots 4 inch groups, you can guess which is the carry gun and which is the parts gun. Had an S&W 29, etc. etc. Sold it. I collect Walther M4s, the prettiest one shoots the worst, but I keep it because its beautiful and has documented WW1 history. If you can get your hands on another P7 you will find out pretty quick where the problem is. Its not always the shooter. __________________ For 20 years the sea was my home, always recall the sun going down, and my trusty friend, a 1911 pistol, strapped to my side.

January 14, 2012, 09:28 AM	#12
Adamantium Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 1999 Location: El Paso, TX Posts: 1,021	I agree it is not always the shooter as well. But it would help you along to shoot from a sandbag rest. Even when I shoot a poor group from a sandbag I have a pretty good idea if it was me or the gun. __________________ New gun, same ol' shot.

January 14, 2012, 09:31 AM	#13
derekb Member Join Date: January 2, 2011 Location: Indiana Posts: 73	If I'm shooting poorly with my P7, I know it's my fault.

January 14, 2012, 09:49 AM	#14
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	When Dean Grennell and Wiley Clapp evaluated the P7s they were getting 2.00" groups with their handloads.

January 14, 2012, 10:01 AM	#16
Boydster Junior Member Join Date: January 13, 2012 Posts: 6	I appreciate all the comments - I will try shooting from a bench with some different brands, and pay more attention to my grip. If that doesn't work out, I will get with someone that also has a P7. That should quickly reveal if the problem is with the gun or the shooter.

January 14, 2012, 10:43 AM	#18
Seaman Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2011 Posts: 654	"I shot it along with my nephew's Ruger 9mm." [Boydster] Sounds like a fair test to me. I have a simple rule, if a gun shoots accurately for me in that first mag (or cylinder) I keep it. If not, I sell or trade it. Life is too short to 'learn' how to shoot a particular gun. I prefer a natural shooter. You wanna hang onto that Ruger. __________________ For 20 years the sea was my home, always recall the sun going down, and my trusty friend, a 1911 pistol, strapped to my side.

January 14, 2012, 12:36 PM	#20
KLRANGL Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2008 Location: Fredericksburg, VA Posts: 958	My P7 shoots 115gr just fine, but it was optimized for 124 NATO. I know it is an "A-Grade" but did you buy it straight from a retailer (not consignment) or a private individual? It might have come in the country as an A-Grade, but use over time might have worn a few things. I replaced almost all the springs on mine when I had it refinished, but that was for reliability not accuracy. __________________ And it's Killer Angel... as in the book

January 14, 2012, 05:14 PM	#22
loose_holster_dan Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2011 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 2,461	try shooting the p7 without really aiming. just point your arm. that's where the p7 shines. go from low ready, pull up, and fire when it feels right. you will be amazed. it's a combat weapon, not a range gun. __________________ Favorite range gun for the money - CZ 75B or STI Spartan V 9mm Go-to carry setup - Walther PPS or PPQ in FIST kydex holster 1AK Favorite semi-auto design - HK P7 "A Sig is like a lightsaber - not as clumsy or random as a Glock."

January 14, 2012, 05:18 PM	#23
Pilot Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2000 Posts: 4,193	While I agree the P7 is a great combat handgun. Low felt recoil, little muzzle rise, great trigger, instinctively points, it is also a VERY ACCURATE aimed range gun. It is right up there with my longer barrelled centerfire handguns in 9MM, like my BHP, and CZ-75's. There is either something terribly wrong with the OP's P7 or he is not shooting it properly. __________________ Pilot

January 15, 2012, 12:19 AM	#25
Ace_Breaker Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2007 Posts: 1,170	I would not imagine it being the gun. It may just be how the shooter interacts with that specific weapon. For some reason I am more accurate with some handguns than with others. A different shooter with the same guns might have different results. For the most part my P7's have been some of the most accurate of my guns, for me. I shoot my Glock 26 more accurate than my Glock 34. My 92fs more accurate than the P9s .45. My P7 PSP better than my P7m8 and so on.