Anyone ever hand make S.P. out of FMJ?

FrontSight · February 25, 2009, 06:17 PM

Was wondering, I have a bunch of low price but high quality fmj that I'd wish were soft point instead (for hunting varmints)...

Can I just take a dremel to them and:

1) Hand-grind / carve away the copper tips to expose the lead, and

2) Slice shallow grooves in the copper sides to create peel back sections for expansion?

Of course I would do this outdoors and wear a high quality mask, etc...

Or does this idea just sound too stupid to even try?

Would it even be dangerous, or possibly cause bad feeding or accuracy to be unpredictible, etc?

kraigwy · February 25, 2009, 06:23 PM

Not a good ideal, FMC are full metal jackets, SP or HPs are made as SP & HPs, you screw with them they wont shoot straight.

Years ago I tried to shoot Water Buffllo wth FMJ 308s. They didnt work well, so I cut the tips off to make soft points, yeah when they hit they worked, but even in a M-60 I could see the differance in accuracy.

Shoot the FMJ for practice, get hunting bullets for hunting.

goodspeed(TPF) · February 25, 2009, 06:24 PM

Sounds like a DUM DUM. Not the OP, the round.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dum-dum

Quote:

Within the British Indian Army, the Dum Dum arsenal produced its now infamous solution - the jacketing was removed from the nose of the bullet, creating the first soft point bullets.

saudst · February 25, 2009, 06:38 PM

Shoot the FMJ for practice, get hunting bullets for hunting.

I agree with this statement. The jackets on varmit or bigger game bullets are designed for their task. I would guess that the jacket on a FMJ bullet was designed to stay together and is rather thick. Cutting off the nose might induce expansioin, maybe not. As far as the scoreing of the jacket to promote expansion, I guess that depends on if you have a masters in metalurgy

I would just send them down range at cans or use them to teach a newbe marksmanship, sorry, "markspersonship". Another thing depending on how many you have, sell them or trade them for varmit bullets?

Just some thoughts, Tim.

ClarkEMyers · February 25, 2009, 07:27 PM

No idea on the Dremel - it's perfectly easy to do with a case trimmer. Put a loaded cartridge in one end and a drill bit in place of the trimming bit and drill to your heart's content. Historically long used to make full patch military ammunition legal - but not wise - for deer hunting and such in previous times of great shortage. Also used to hollow point cast bullets for handguns.

In some cases such as hide hunting coyotes a full patch that is a FMJ bullet of adequate size is used to give the small hole in and out and works for some people some of the time.

A bad idea for varmint hunting in general because a varmint bullet is typically asked to blow up completely in the interests of a clean kill and equally in the interests of safety. If it can't be done well and safely unmodified it likely can't be done well and safely modified.

If your range is such that the bullets are safe to use unmodified - that is the fall out area is all your own property beyond the horizon I'd think the experiment would be interesting. It has not been generally enough to make a true blowup on a sunbeam bullet for past experimenters but extra effort may give extra rewards - for me it would surely not be worth the time to notch the jacket externally with any sort of quality control and any variation in ogive might be inconsistent enough to make the accuracy also inconsistent.

FrontSight · February 25, 2009, 07:28 PM

Aaah, ok, thanks guys, Doesn't seem dangerous, tho, right (I mean to the rifle, pressure wise)? Would be fun to experiment, just for poops and giggles when bored...

kraigwy, thank you for your service!

wncchester · February 25, 2009, 10:19 PM

"Or does this idea just sound too stupid to even try?"

Your idea was commonly done, in a way, in the late 1940s. After the war there was a lot of surplus -06 ammo on the market but not a lot of civilian ammo yet. It never worked real good and faded as soon as good bullets were available.

snuffy · February 26, 2009, 01:57 AM

I'm surprised that after 7 posts, there hasn't been anybody tell you it's downright dangerous.

FMJ bullets are open based bullets. That means the jacket is solid up front, and open on the rear. It is then filled with lead. Actually the lead is inserted in the jacket, then the point is formed.

If you cut the front of the jacket off, you now have an open ended tube with lead in the center. Firing such a bullet may cause the lead to spit out of the tube, leaving the tube,(jacket), in the barrel. Then the next round is fired,KABOOM! Burst barrel, injured shooter, possibly bystanders.

Shoot them as is, sell them or even give them away. Your idea has been tryed before with disastrous results.

FALPhil · February 26, 2009, 07:15 AM

Quote:

If you cut the front of the jacket off, you now have an open ended tube with lead in the center. Firing such a bullet may cause the lead to spit out of the tube, leaving the tube,(jacket), in the barrel. Then the next round is fired,KABOOM! Burst barrel, injured shooter, possibly bystanders.

That's an interesting theory. I suspect that there is no empirical evidence to support it, but is there even any anecdotal evidence?

**Mike Irwin** · February 26, 2009, 10:33 AM

Snuffy is absolutely correct.

It's a distinct possibility, especially if you trim the bullets back too far.

When I was working at NRA we had in our collection a rifle with a burst barrel that had been added to the collections in the 1950s.

The previous owner had purchased it from the CMP along with a BUNCH of cheap surplus ball ammunition, which he modified by cutting the tips of the bullet back to make his own soft point hunting rounds.

Apparently he cut some back too far, because he lodged two jackets in the bore (they were still there). He finally fired a bullet that hung together, and it resulted in a burst barrel.

He wasn't injured, but I'd say he was luck, really.

I believe that Winchester, Remington, and the military have all carried out experiments on this over the years, as well, but I can't lay my hands on anything definitive.

So, yes, making your own softpoints from FMJs is a potentially dangerous thing to do.

Still not convinced?

You're more than welcome to try with your own guns, but I won't be trying it with mine.

markr · February 26, 2009, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:
If you cut the front of the jacket off, you now have an open ended tube with lead in the center. Firing such a bullet may cause the lead to spit out of the tube, leaving the tube,(jacket), in the barrel. Then the next round is fired,KABOOM! Burst barrel, injured shooter, possibly bystanders.

That's an interesting theory. I suspect that there is no empirical evidence to support it, but is there even any anecdotal evidence?

If you ever watch Guns and Ammo Television, I think it is the Personal Defense Network or something, they have two guys that do weird things to guns, and then try to shoot them strapped into a rest while pulling the trigger with a string from a distance. The last show, they cooked two guns on a BBQ grill to demonstrate why a house fire ruins firearms. You could write to them and suggest this test.

The last post though should be enough example to forget about this craziness.

FrontSight · February 26, 2009, 03:09 PM

Aaaaahhhh, pretty interesting.

I think, tho, that if the copper jacket wraps completely around the base, encompassing the lead, then it would be pretty surprising to see the lead come out and leave the jacket in the barrel, right?

Only the ones with open lead at the base would have this problem?

PCJim · February 26, 2009, 03:25 PM

Scrap, that is correct, if you meant copper jacket and not lead jacket. This becomes rather clear if you consider how FMJ bullets are made as compared to hollowpoints.

For simplicity at it's best, imagine filling a small copper cup with lead. If you are making FMJ's, the bottom of that filled cup will be formed to become the tip/point of the FMJ and the top of the cup where your exposed lead is becomes the bottom of the FMJ. This procedure is reversed with hollowpoints, where the bottom that cup remains the bottom of the HP and the top of the cup (exposed lead) is formed to make the tip.

When firing a HP, the developing gas pressure is pushing against a solid base of copper. With a FMJ, it is pushing against an exposed lead core. If you remove the tip/point of a FMJ, the copper jacket could develop more friction with the barrel than the friction between the lead and copper jacket, thus allowing the lead to separate from the jacket and be pushed thru the barrel, leaving the jacket behind.

This scenario is presuming FMJ's, not TMJ or CMJ bullets which are not true FMJ's but an electroplated lead bullet.

dlb435 · February 26, 2009, 03:41 PM

The troops in WW1 used to do this. Usual practice was to take a knife and cut an X in the bullet. It wasn't a very good idea then and I don't think it has improved with time. Probably the only safe way to do this is with a bullet swaging machine. That would cost you more than you will save.
Why not just try these bullets out like they are? Soft point, ballistic tip or what ever are only marginally more effective than FMJ bullets. In some cases, the FMJ will be more effective than a SP. There are just so many variables here. Range, velocity, shot placement, bone or flesh, deflection etc..

wncchester · February 26, 2009, 07:34 PM

"...an interesting theory. I suspect that there is no empirical evidence to support it, but is there even any anecdotal evidence?"

Actually, yes. It was not uncommon if the user cut the point back too far and made the jacket a short tube.

I'd suggest just using them for practice bullets as they are and get proper hunting bullets for game. Commercial bullets of any kind will do a much better job.

Troops in WWI rarely if ever cut "X"s in the still new full patch type spitzer bullets, it's much too hard to do that in any significant volume with a hand held knife. But, it had been done in previous wars when the bullets were round-nosed solid lead. It really didn't do much more than make the user more confident tho.

HiBC · February 27, 2009, 04:45 AM

I am just going to re-enforce that it is a bad idea.There was a time,many years ago when folks like PO Ackley and Elmer had Q+A columns,and one of the more common hunting rifles was a DCM Springfield sporter,and lots of 30-06 ball was around.It was just in the information we all shared it was dangerous for the reasons described.Remember,conventional cup and core bullets are not hot core or bonded.That lead core is just squeezed.

Where do you think there is more friction,between the copper jacket and the bore/rifling,or between the copper and the lead.

It won't be accurate,and the folks at Sierra,Speer,Nosler,Hornady,etc put a lot of effort into tapering jackets,thickness,etc.
If it does not get stuck and become a gun destroyer,it will still be a poor performer on game.

Have you considered casting bullets? Now,that is a way to be frugal and get some of that creative energy a place to work.

Its those danged Dremel tools.A guy gets one,his eyes glaze over,and the kid with the new hatchet comes out...What am I gonna grind,drill,polish ...

troy_mclure · February 27, 2009, 07:15 AM

ive used dykes to cut the tips of of 5.56 ball, it hugely affected the accuracy.

DiscoRacing · February 27, 2009, 07:59 AM

i wouldnt wanna try it and shoot from one a my guns..... guess i value my guns and life a lil bit too much

FrontSight · February 27, 2009, 01:46 PM

LOL, HiBC, I have had this Dremel since about 1993 or so...

Jim Watson · February 27, 2009, 04:26 PM

If you cut too much, you risk blowing the core through and leaving the jacket as a bore obstruction. Hatcher described seeing a barrel with a jacket kind of ironed into the bore. It had not blown up but it did not shoot very well any more.
If you don't cut enough, it won't expand, the drawing process leaves the jacket thickest at the nose and a small hole or cut won't get mushrooming started.
There was some use of open base FMJs loaded backwards. They tended to blow up on impact, plus the poor ballistic coefficient of what amounted to a .30 cal wadcutter.

Bad idea. (The original cut-nose Dum-Dum recommended by Captain Bertie Clay didn't work well either.)

FrontSight · March 2, 2009, 10:39 PM

Thanks everyone, your collective knowledge is amazing...

Needless to say, I am not going to try this...

February 25, 2009, 06:17 PM	#1
FrontSight Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2005 Posts: 1,712	Anyone ever hand make S.P. out of FMJ? Was wondering, I have a bunch of low price but high quality fmj that I'd wish were soft point instead (for hunting varmints)... Can I just take a dremel to them and: 1) Hand-grind / carve away the copper tips to expose the lead, and 2) Slice shallow grooves in the copper sides to create peel back sections for expansion? Of course I would do this outdoors and wear a high quality mask, etc... Or does this idea just sound too stupid to even try? Would it even be dangerous, or possibly cause bad feeding or accuracy to be unpredictible, etc?

February 25, 2009, 06:38 PM	#4
saudst Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2008 Location: Central Wisconsin Posts: 184	Shoot the FMJ for practice, get hunting bullets for hunting. I agree with this statement. The jackets on varmit or bigger game bullets are designed for their task. I would guess that the jacket on a FMJ bullet was designed to stay together and is rather thick. Cutting off the nose might induce expansioin, maybe not. As far as the scoreing of the jacket to promote expansion, I guess that depends on if you have a masters in metalurgy I would just send them down range at cans or use them to teach a newbe marksmanship, sorry, "markspersonship". Another thing depending on how many you have, sell them or trade them for varmit bullets? Just some thoughts, Tim. Last edited by saudst; February 25, 2009 at 06:59 PM.

February 25, 2009, 07:27 PM	#5
ClarkEMyers Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2004 Location: PacWest Posts: 455	No idea on the Dremel - it's perfectly easy to do with a case trimmer. No idea on the Dremel - it's perfectly easy to do with a case trimmer. Put a loaded cartridge in one end and a drill bit in place of the trimming bit and drill to your heart's content. Historically long used to make full patch military ammunition legal - but not wise - for deer hunting and such in previous times of great shortage. Also used to hollow point cast bullets for handguns. In some cases such as hide hunting coyotes a full patch that is a FMJ bullet of adequate size is used to give the small hole in and out and works for some people some of the time. A bad idea for varmint hunting in general because a varmint bullet is typically asked to blow up completely in the interests of a clean kill and equally in the interests of safety. If it can't be done well and safely unmodified it likely can't be done well and safely modified. If your range is such that the bullets are safe to use unmodified - that is the fall out area is all your own property beyond the horizon I'd think the experiment would be interesting. It has not been generally enough to make a true blowup on a sunbeam bullet for past experimenters but extra effort may give extra rewards - for me it would surely not be worth the time to notch the jacket externally with any sort of quality control and any variation in ogive might be inconsistent enough to make the accuracy also inconsistent.

February 25, 2009, 07:28 PM	#6
FrontSight Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2005 Posts: 1,712	Aaah, ok, thanks guys, Doesn't seem dangerous, tho, right (I mean to the rifle, pressure wise)? Would be fun to experiment, just for poops and giggles when bored... kraigwy, thank you for your service! Last edited by FrontSight; February 25, 2009 at 07:34 PM. Reason: replied before seeing ClarkEMyers's reponse

February 26, 2009, 03:09 PM	#12
FrontSight Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2005 Posts: 1,712	Aaaaahhhh, pretty interesting. I think, tho, that if the copper jacket wraps completely around the base, encompassing the lead, then it would be pretty surprising to see the lead come out and leave the jacket in the barrel, right? Only the ones with open lead at the base would have this problem? Last edited by FrontSight; February 26, 2009 at 06:26 PM. Reason: oops, I meant copper jacket, not lead jacket...

February 25, 2009, 06:23 PM	#2
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	Not a good ideal, FMC are full metal jackets, SP or HPs are made as SP & HPs, you screw with them they wont shoot straight. Years ago I tried to shoot Water Buffllo wth FMJ 308s. They didnt work well, so I cut the tips off to make soft points, yeah when they hit they worked, but even in a M-60 I could see the differance in accuracy. Shoot the FMJ for practice, get hunting bullets for hunting.

February 25, 2009, 10:19 PM	#7
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"Or does this idea just sound too stupid to even try?" Your idea was commonly done, in a way, in the late 1940s. After the war there was a lot of surplus -06 ammo on the market but not a lot of civilian ammo yet. It never worked real good and faded as soon as good bullets were available.

February 26, 2009, 01:57 AM	#8
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	I'm surprised that after 7 posts, there hasn't been anybody tell you it's downright dangerous. FMJ bullets are open based bullets. That means the jacket is solid up front, and open on the rear. It is then filled with lead. Actually the lead is inserted in the jacket, then the point is formed. If you cut the front of the jacket off, you now have an open ended tube with lead in the center. Firing such a bullet may cause the lead to spit out of the tube, leaving the tube,(jacket), in the barrel. Then the next round is fired,KABOOM! Burst barrel, injured shooter, possibly bystanders. Shoot them as is, sell them or even give them away. Your idea has been tryed before with disastrous results.

February 26, 2009, 10:33 AM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,410	Snuffy is absolutely correct. It's a distinct possibility, especially if you trim the bullets back too far. When I was working at NRA we had in our collection a rifle with a burst barrel that had been added to the collections in the 1950s. The previous owner had purchased it from the CMP along with a BUNCH of cheap surplus ball ammunition, which he modified by cutting the tips of the bullet back to make his own soft point hunting rounds. Apparently he cut some back too far, because he lodged two jackets in the bore (they were still there). He finally fired a bullet that hung together, and it resulted in a burst barrel. He wasn't injured, but I'd say he was luck, really. I believe that Winchester, Remington, and the military have all carried out experiments on this over the years, as well, but I can't lay my hands on anything definitive. So, yes, making your own softpoints from FMJs is a potentially dangerous thing to do. Still not convinced? You're more than welcome to try with your own guns, but I won't be trying it with mine.

February 26, 2009, 03:25 PM	#13
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	Scrap, that is correct, if you meant copper jacket and not lead jacket. This becomes rather clear if you consider how FMJ bullets are made as compared to hollowpoints. For simplicity at it's best, imagine filling a small copper cup with lead. If you are making FMJ's, the bottom of that filled cup will be formed to become the tip/point of the FMJ and the top of the cup where your exposed lead is becomes the bottom of the FMJ. This procedure is reversed with hollowpoints, where the bottom that cup remains the bottom of the HP and the top of the cup (exposed lead) is formed to make the tip. When firing a HP, the developing gas pressure is pushing against a solid base of copper. With a FMJ, it is pushing against an exposed lead core. If you remove the tip/point of a FMJ, the copper jacket could develop more friction with the barrel than the friction between the lead and copper jacket, thus allowing the lead to separate from the jacket and be pushed thru the barrel, leaving the jacket behind. This scenario is presuming FMJ's, not TMJ or CMJ bullets which are not true FMJ's but an electroplated lead bullet.

February 26, 2009, 03:41 PM	#14
dlb435 Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 654	The troops in WW1 used to do this. Usual practice was to take a knife and cut an X in the bullet. It wasn't a very good idea then and I don't think it has improved with time. Probably the only safe way to do this is with a bullet swaging machine. That would cost you more than you will save. Why not just try these bullets out like they are? Soft point, ballistic tip or what ever are only marginally more effective than FMJ bullets. In some cases, the FMJ will be more effective than a SP. There are just so many variables here. Range, velocity, shot placement, bone or flesh, deflection etc..

February 26, 2009, 07:34 PM	#15
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"...an interesting theory. I suspect that there is no empirical evidence to support it, but is there even any anecdotal evidence?" Actually, yes. It was not uncommon if the user cut the point back too far and made the jacket a short tube. I'd suggest just using them for practice bullets as they are and get proper hunting bullets for game. Commercial bullets of any kind will do a much better job. Troops in WWI rarely if ever cut "X"s in the still new full patch type spitzer bullets, it's much too hard to do that in any significant volume with a hand held knife. But, it had been done in previous wars when the bullets were round-nosed solid lead. It really didn't do much more than make the user more confident tho.

February 27, 2009, 04:45 AM	#16
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,299	I am just going to re-enforce that it is a bad idea.There was a time,many years ago when folks like PO Ackley and Elmer had Q+A columns,and one of the more common hunting rifles was a DCM Springfield sporter,and lots of 30-06 ball was around.It was just in the information we all shared it was dangerous for the reasons described.Remember,conventional cup and core bullets are not hot core or bonded.That lead core is just squeezed. Where do you think there is more friction,between the copper jacket and the bore/rifling,or between the copper and the lead. It won't be accurate,and the folks at Sierra,Speer,Nosler,Hornady,etc put a lot of effort into tapering jackets,thickness,etc. If it does not get stuck and become a gun destroyer,it will still be a poor performer on game. Have you considered casting bullets? Now,that is a way to be frugal and get some of that creative energy a place to work. Its those danged Dremel tools.A guy gets one,his eyes glaze over,and the kid with the new hatchet comes out...What am I gonna grind,drill,polish ...

February 27, 2009, 07:15 AM	#17
troy_mclure Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: gulf of mexico Posts: 2,716	ive used dykes to cut the tips of of 5.56 ball, it hugely affected the accuracy.

February 27, 2009, 07:59 AM	#18
DiscoRacing Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2008 Location: milton, wv Posts: 3,640	i wouldnt wanna try it and shoot from one a my guns..... guess i value my guns and life a lil bit too much

February 27, 2009, 01:46 PM	#19
FrontSight Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2005 Posts: 1,712	LOL, HiBC, I have had this Dremel since about 1993 or so...

February 27, 2009, 04:26 PM	#20
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,590	If you cut too much, you risk blowing the core through and leaving the jacket as a bore obstruction. Hatcher described seeing a barrel with a jacket kind of ironed into the bore. It had not blown up but it did not shoot very well any more. If you don't cut enough, it won't expand, the drawing process leaves the jacket thickest at the nose and a small hole or cut won't get mushrooming started. There was some use of open base FMJs loaded backwards. They tended to blow up on impact, plus the poor ballistic coefficient of what amounted to a .30 cal wadcutter. Bad idea. (The original cut-nose Dum-Dum recommended by Captain Bertie Clay didn't work well either.)

March 2, 2009, 10:39 PM	#21
FrontSight Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2005 Posts: 1,712	Thanks everyone, your collective knowledge is amazing... Needless to say, I am not going to try this...