Question about. 357 Auto

[RC20]

Keep in mind that the 357 Magnum standard round was intended for Highway Patrol and barrier penetration.

The 357 Sig duplicates that (and if you push it to +p it will proportionately maintain the improvement over 9mm.

Conversely you can shoot heavier than 124 gr and get more velocity than comparable 9mm.

I doubt that the veloiy causes any good SD bullet to "disintegrate".

So I would call it more a niche round than a boutique (glock 45 gap was a boutique that offered nothing).

If you want just standard SD then the 9mm is just fine and will not ove-pentrate. That is the hazard of the 357 in a close SD situation that you go through and then into things you don't want to.

[WESHOOT2]

While the cartridge may headspace on the shoulder, the bullet hits the top of the chamber as it tips fully into the chamber.

[Onward Allusion]

Aw, too little love for the 357 SIG.

Recoil is no more than a 40S&W. Noise is up there tho.

Standard 125 gr 357 SIG rounds will go ~1,300+ fps and generate right around 500 ft lb. You'd have to go 9mm +P to get over 400 fps and 9mm +P+ to get within 50 fps against a STANDARD 125 gr 357 round. If you'd go the performance route with 357 SIG, then you're approaching 1,500 to 1,600 fps range and high 500's to mid 600's ft lbs depending on the gun. From my P250 with a 4.7", it'll go to the high 600's. There is no way that a 9mm can come close to those numbers.

With regard to .45 ACP, +P rounds will come close to standard 357 rounds, but with a heck of a larger hole. With exotic (super light fragmenting) 45 ACP +P rounds they'll be at the same level as a high performance 357 SIG cartridge.

Now with all that said, it really doesn't matter if it's 400 ft lbs or 600 ft lbs against your typical bad guy. I personally use 9mm for most SD applications outside of work. It gives me the maximum capacity with the least amount of recoil. If I were in LE, then there's no doubt in my mind that I'd be carrying something chambered in 357 SIG. It has better odds at punching through stuff.

[JD0x0]

That is the hazard of the 357 in a close SD situation that you go through and then into things you don't want to.

It's a hazard for pretty much any self defense cartridge, with the possible exception of .25acp. ALWAYS know what's beyond your target. A miss is worse than 'over penetration' because the bullet didn't hit the intended target, and therefore hasn't expended any energy besides the loss from air resistance, which is pretty negligible at SD distances.
There's also frangible ammo, which I'm not a fan of, if penetration was a big issue. I'd rather see light through the bad guy, personally. I don't want to worry about a bullet not penetrating enough to reach vital organs or the CNS, if I do my part and aim well.

Everyone has different needs and wants and limitations, in concern to their pistol cartridge, so of course the .357sig isn't going to make everyone happy.

Also I agree, anyone who thinks a 147 grain HP is going to 'disintegrate' coming out of a .357 sig, is just being silly. People shoot soft lead at velocities significantly higher than the .357sig, and you don't often hear about them disintegrating. You may get slightly less weight retention (more fragmentation) with the higher velocity, depending on the bullet, but I seriously doubt any bullet will disintegrate, unless you use some extreme example, or a bullet that was meant to fragment on impact. 115 grains and up should be fine, you might start getting into trouble if you try to use something like a 90 grain designed for 'rapid expansion' at .380acp velocities.

[44 AMP]

People shoot soft lead at velocities significantly higher than the .357sig, ..

Who does that?

With velocities being claimed from 1300 to 1500fps range for the .357 Sig, "soft" (pure) lead is completely unsuitable.

With a good hard alloy, you can get into those ranges without serious leading, but not with soft lead.

[Peter M. Eick]

I do.

I toss 158 grn Lasercast SWC's out at 1590 fps with my 357 Maximums. It is a nice light plinking load in the Max. Now I am up to 180's at the same velocity.

[44 AMP]

Peter, I don't think you do!
All the Lazercast slugs I've seen, including the 158SWC have been good hard alloy.

People shoot soft lead at velocities significantly higher than the .357sig,

I think what might have been meant was "lead" (as opposed to jacketed), but what was said was "soft lead" which is a rather specific term, and as such, is incorrect for the statement.

I've shot (literally) tons of cast bullets, and I've shot swaged bullets. Soft ones are limited to about 1,000fps or less, (usually 7-900fps) or you get serious leading.

With the right (hard) alloy, and loading techniques (gas checks, etc.) you can about double that speed before bullet limitations force you to go to jacketed.

here's another shot of my "other .357 auto"...


its a Coonan, model A, one of about 1500 produced before they changed to the model B. The rubber grip panels came with it when I got it, and I have no idea who made them, but they change the feel of the gun in the hand a lot. Much better then the smooty wood, for me. And, no, they are NOT from any 1911A1.

I have shot this gun, but not very much, as it is even more of a rare bird than my Auto Mag(s). It did work flawlessly as we went through a couple boxes of S&B 158gr FMJ that a friend provided. The gun does recoil a bit, but its not all that bad. The blast, of course, is fierce.

Coonan is back in business, and while there is a considerable wait time, their guns are available. And I understand they have made some improvements over the previous Model B's. Some TFL members have gotten them, and reports are very favorable.

Aside from looking like a cartoonist's idea of a 1911, the Coonan is a good choice if you want a .357 auto pistol. It is only a little bit bigger than a standard 1911, (and a little heavier), but its still small enough to be able to be used as a duty class gun, unlike the much larger & heavier Desert Eagle. It also has the "advantage" of being recoil operated, so, unlike the Desert Eagle, you can shoot (suitable) unjacketed bullets without issues.

I have heard some people question the quality of the Coonan, because the slide to frame fit is not as "tight" as they think it ought to be, based on their experience with 1911s. I have also heard (from some people at, or formerly with Coonan) that this is deliberate.

What they say is, essentially, when you get up into the .357 Magnum levels, the frame of the gun actually "flexes" as the gun operates, and the clearance is needed for proper operation.

I also understand that new Coonans come with a recoil spring allowing the use of .38 Special loads, with just a spring change. The original guns needed both a different spring and magazine to shoot .38s. The new gun's magazines have been improved and will handle both cartridges. What they won't do, apparently is fit the old guns. Coonan says there have been some minor changes in the frame dimensions, and the new mags won't automatically fit the old guns. They might, but don't count on it. Coonan sys they can fit new mags to your old gun, so if you get one of the original Model B's you can get mags to fit it, just not off the shelf.

The other .357 Magnum auto pistol I have personal experience with is the Desert Eagle. A true brute to carry and hold, but a pussycat to shoot. A very LOUD pussycat, but a pussycat.

I have run 125gr JHPs at a measured 1720fps from a 6" (nominal) Desert Eagle with polygonal rifling. Function was flawless in my gun. This is 50fps faster than the same ammo delivered from a 6" S&W M28, and 100fps faster than that same ammo did in a 6" S&W M19. Also, FYI, that ammo ejected about normal for a hot load in the M28 (slight resistance, then popped right out) but was totally unsuitable for the M19, as cases required a small hammer to remove from the Model 19 cylinder.

No matter what they tell you, size DOES matter!

If you can manage the size and weight of the Desert Eagle (4.25lbs empty) in .357 Magnum, you can shoot it pretty fast, and accurately. Back in the mid 80s, (before age and debauchery left me the wreck I am today) I once cleared 5 pins off the table with a .357 Mag Desert Eagle in 4.37 seconds, using all 9 rounds in the gun. (one pin fell over and was laying end on to me, so that one took a couple shots to nail).

While that time was a personal best for me (with anything, I'm not a serious pin shooter), it wasn't even good enough to place 3rd in that match.

That was a banner day for me, though, not only did I make my best time ever (with anything) using that .357 DE, I also cleared the table in 5.36 seconds with my .44 Auto Mag. 5 shots. And I also managed 7.02 in "crank & yank" (Single action class) with a 7.5" Ruger .45 colt shooting a 250gr swc at 1100fps! Actually got 3rd place with that time in that category. Of course, there were only 4 or 5 shooters....

[Peter M. Eick]

Thanks for the review.

So to get a good 357 Auto, the basic choices are:
357 Sig - got 229 sport
357 Automag - got a 44 but I don't shoot it so why by a 357 Auto barrel
357 Magnum - Coonan or Desert Eagle.

44, if you had to pick for the 357 magnum which would you recommend?

Coonan or Desert Eagle? And which version of the Desert Eagle? I heard that very early ones were better for some reason?

[44 AMP]

Thanks Peter,

Which one would I recommend for a .357 Magnum auto pistol?

the only ones currently in production are the Desert Eagle and the Coonan.

(you can sometimes find an LAR Grizzly in .357, but they are long out of production)

If you choose the Desert Eagle in .357, you are not getting a .357, you are getting a Desert Eagle, which happens to be in .357. If you are ok with the size (particularly the huge grip size) & weight, the fact that you cannot use lead bullets, and there is no simple option for reduced loads, and that the gun is tempermental about how it has to be held, and what ammo will run in it, then the Desert Eagle is a good gun.

Both the .357s I had were 80s production guns. Nowdays referred to as MK I. (the Mark # are not marked on the gun fyi)

I don't have any personal experience with the new Coonans but if I were in the market, I would get one of them, for the following reasons
A) more versatile than the Desert Eagle, both in carry options and ammo compatibility.
B) only slightly larger and heavier than a 1911, but significantly smaller and lighter than the Desert Eagle.
C) I've had a Desert Eagle (still have one in .44mag) and I've never had one of the new Coonans
D) the Coonan is a 1911 style gun. If you like the 1911, the Coonan may seem odd, but not alien. Of the available magnum auto pistols, new or used, the Coonan is the closest in size and weight to the usual full size duty gun standards.

E) The Coonan feels better in my hands. Its just a large pistol. The Desert Eagle isn't JUST a large pistol, its a HUGE pistol. The grip makes my Auto Mags feel slender. Long, but slender.

On the side of the Desert Eagle, if you are an accuracy nut (and who isn't, other than a matter of degree?) the DE has a fixed barrel, and is easily scoped. That gives it the potential for better accuracy than any tilt barrel Browning style pistol.

The Desert Eagle is a specialty piece, the Coonan is closer to a general purpose auto pistol.


Note that I didn't mention cost.

What is an outrageous price for some is a pittance if you are well heeled. Only you can decide if the price is a value for your money.

Hope this helps.

[Chaz88]

I have shot several different DE's and own a new model Coonan. I would buy another Coonan before I bought a DE. The price is on the high end but worth it, in my opinion.

[Elkins45]

It is sort of a boutique round that would have gone the way of 45 Gap if not for the fact you can do a barrel swap with most guns in 40 S&W and have 2 calibers from the same gun.

I don't think you can call it a boutique round when the US Secret Service, Air Marshalls and a number of state patrol agencies (including Texas Rangers) use it. More importantly, I can tell it isn't a boutique round by the fact you can buy once fired brass by the barrel full from a number of vendors for about the same price (or less) as 40 S&W.

[Hook686]

Another view: I have the Desert Eagle XIX. I bought it in .44 magnum, as it is on the acceptable list here in California. I then bought a .357 magnum bolt/barrel kit and a 10" barrel. I could not do that with a Coonan. I also bought a Pride-Fowler Rapid Recoil scope for a .44 magnum handgun.

I have large hands, so the grip size is not a problem. Shooting full house .44 magnum rounds, as others have said, is a pussycat. I find racking the slide is not. The older I get the more of a challenge that becomes. Perhaps my DE is weird, but I get 10 .357 magnum rounds in the magazine. Plus 1 in the chamber and I got 11 .357 magnum rounds that I can touch off like I was shooting .38s in Redhawk.

The 10" barrel and scope plus a bipod go with me up into the mountains for some coyote hunting now and again. I find it easier to carry than a rifle, or carbine.

I think it comes down to just what you want to use it for and only you can decide if the grip fits your hand and the weight and size of the pistol work for you. Although I sometimes carry the DE in a hip holster when up in the mountains I do not suggest it for concealed carry.

[44 AMP]

Perhaps my DE is weird, but I get 10 .357 magnum rounds in the magazine.

I don't know if its weird, or not. All my hands on experience is with the first generation guns (now called the Mk I). Mags for those guns held 9. And had 9 witness holes. Mags for my .44 have 8 holes.

I did see an aftermarket 10 rnd .44 mag once. Guy had it with a later Mark .44 (not sure which one). It was steel, unfinished and unmarked. Guy claimed it was a factory mag, but he also claimed the DE he had was one of the first, and that was not so. When I pointed out the two obvious differences between the early model and the later ones (safety & slide stop levers are different), he fell back on the classic "well, that's what the guy I got it from said...."

How many witness holes are in your .357 mag? what is the date on it? (I believe the date is a mfg design date, not the actual date of manufacture)

I didn't think it was possible to overload the mag, (never tried) but if your mag(s) have 9 holes, I'd only put 9 in them.

[Hook686]

There are 9 witness holes in the magazines. Originally 9 rounds fit easily. After some use the magazines now hold 10. Why would you limit it to 9 rounds ? I have experienced no difference shooting with 10 in the magazine, as with 9 in the magazine. The magazines are stamped 10-96 357. The magazines in .44 magnum do indeed only hold 8 rounds and I have probably shot the DE in that mode more than in .357 magnum mode. All three magazines in .357 magnum hold 10 rounds. Bought them all new at the same time as the DE and 10" barrel kit.

[44 AMP]

Thanks for the reply. As best I can recall, my .357 mags were marked (something)-84. I can clearly remember the 84 part, just not what the first digit was. I no longer have a .357 DE to check.

It is possible that there was some kind of internal change to the mag, which allows that 10th rnd "after they are broken in"? I don't know. Your mags are clearly from a different production batch than the ones I used 25+ years ago, which may account for the difference.

As to why I would "limit" myself to 9? 1) its what the maker said it held, 2) 9 witness holes in a single stack mag, 3) concern over mag (spring) life, and last, I don't consider one round to be a serious limitation.

FYI, my .44 mags are marked 5-86.

Since you are apparently having no trouble loading and using 10 in the mag, enjoy it!

[Hook686]

Thanks for the feedback. My .44 magazines are marked 7 - 95 44 and hold the listed 8 rounds. I do not know why the ,357 magnum magazines hold 10, but all three do. I'll just enjoy the extra, mas I do not see and extra shot to be a bad thing.

[44 AMP]

No, the extra round isn't a bad thing at all, unless you are overcompressing the magazine springs.

If you are, they will fail, before they otherwise would. However, a) springs are fairly cheap, and b) if the difference in spring life is 10,000 vs 12,000 cycles before failure (for example, numbers picked at random), odds are you or I would never notice the difference.

As a guess, I'd say you lucked into a situation where getting that "extra" round works for you. I never even considered it back when I had a .357 DE, it might have worked for me then, or it might not have, no way to know.

I think that if the designers intended them to hold 10, they would have marketed them as 10rnd mags. However, there are a number of things in life where one can get more than the designers intended, without any real negative drawbacks. This seems to be one of them.

I say, enjoy the benefit! If I ever do get my hands on another .357 DE, I'll see if it will work for me as well as it does for you.

[Deja vu]

My brother has a 357 sig and asked me to help him reload some rounds for it. Imagine my surprise when the 357 magnum bullets I brought over did not fit (170 grain speer DC)

It should of been called the 355 sig cause it uses 9mm bullets!

[JD0x0]

It should of been called the 352 sig cause it uses 9mm bullets!

9mm typically uses .355-.356 bullets. So it's should be called the .355 sig if anything. They likely called it the .357 sig because it was meant to mimic lighter .357 mag loads in an auto pistol.
FWIW many cartridges are 'misnamed' this way. The .44 mag uses .429-.430 bullets, not .44 caliber, for example.

'.30 caliber' machine guns are closer to .31 than .30

[44 AMP]

'.30 caliber' machine guns are closer to .31 than .30

Depends where you measure it.

Cartridge names have some kind of relationship to the bullet fired, but only some kind. Things are measured many different ways. your .30 caliber (US) rifle is either a .300 or a .308 depending on how you measure the bore, land to land, or groove to groove.

The reason our ".38s" are actually just under .36 and our .44s are just under .43 caliber comes from the history of the development of handgun cartridges.

Early metallic cartridges were loaded with heel type bullets (like the .22LR still is). The widest part of the bullet is as wide as the case. And they were made to be an acceptably good fit in the bores of converted cap & ball revolvers.

later on, the inside lubricated bullet (the current modern design) took over from the heel type, and since the widest part of the bullet had to fit inside the case, the bullet diameter was reduced. The "soft" lead bullets in use then would still upset well enough in the now slightly oversize bores so accuracy was still acceptable.

Over time, "standard" bore diameter was reduced to be a better fit for the new bullet designs. Newer rounds, began their lives with the smaller bullet diameter, but kept the traditional bore size NAMES for their market recognition and popularity.

The .357 Magnum was a big change, in the sense that its name was actually much more closely related to its actual bullet size than other ".38" caliber rounds of the era. Plus, the 3 digit name just sounds impressive.

Like when your mother calls you by your first, middle and last names, you know its something serious!

[TRX]

It only took me 30 years to scrape up the shekels and get an Auto Mag. ("My precious...") A Coonan .357 is next on the list...

[44 AMP]

It only took me 10 years, between first seeing an Auto Mag (other than in a magazine) and getting my first one. Of course, when after years of looking, I did find one, I had to take out a loan to get it. Cost more than the car I was driving at the time.

It did take me over 30 years to "complete" my collection, a result of opportunity, income, and obsession. While I don't have all of them now, my collection has or had included,
.44 Auto Mag (44AMP)
.357 Auto Mag (357AMP)
Desert Eagle .357 Magnum
Desert Eagle .44 Magnum
Coonan (model A) .357 Magnum
LAR Grizzly .44 Magnum
LAR Grizzly .45 Win Mag
Wildey .45 Win Mag

not for everthing, but more than a bit FUN!