What does it take to thoroughly clean out an old rifle bore

U.S.SFC_RET · July 18, 2006, 06:20 PM

I have an old Remington 03A3 that I have tried to clean out with a good .30 bore brush and Kroil and a 1/2 ton of bore patches. I've tried soaking with kroil over time with a good brushing and lots of patches only to discover that once I run the bore brush through again I dirty up more patches. I repeat this over and over again. Soak, brush, brush, brush, swab, swab, swab. The bore brush is tight. I've tried CLP, KROIL and a mixture of the two. I still get dirty patches.

Comments if you could.

Wildalaska · July 18, 2006, 06:50 PM

Hoppes on a clean brush, scrub scrub scrub
Gunk out on patches, scrub scrub scrub
Copper cutter till the blue gets faint, scrub scrub scrub

Repeat over and over again till clean

WildelbowgreaseAlaska

ElkSlayer6x5 · July 19, 2006, 04:22 PM

Get your self some butch's bore shine and a nylon 30 cal brush
soak a patch and run er through the bore repeat a few times then put on the nylon brush get that wet with the bbs and start workin that thing full stroke chamber to muzzle do this many many times till your arm gets sore

....... repeating swabin and brushin tell you run a patch and it comes out clean....
the patch will have a blue green look to it that is copper fouling
the bbs will eat up a brass brush

so make sure to use nylon

Also if it is realy bad give it a few swabs and let it sit for a bit between
swabs and scrubin
It helps to mount rifle in cleaning station and to add in keepin the mess in check use a bore guide

and a trick i like to do that keeps my wife off my butt

put a 20 oz plastic soda bottle over the muzzle wrap a strip of cloth around barrel so bottle will fit nice

it will catch all spray from brushing and colect used patches that is if you usea pionted jeg for your patches ,once done remove and whip off any remaning stuff
once im close to being finished i remove just so i can see patch with ease

Jim Watson · July 19, 2006, 04:56 PM

I have saved a lot of elbow grease with Wipe-Out foam cleaner. It works very well on a new Savage barrel with a lot of tool marks. Dry out the other stuff and squirt the barrel full of foam. Let it stand 20 minutes, wipe out, repeat a couple of times. Then leave it full of foam overnight.

tINY · July 19, 2006, 06:17 PM

You say "the bore brush". Have you cleaned the brush?

Maybe try a new one?

-tINY

raktrak · July 19, 2006, 06:53 PM

WE use a product called Extreme Clean and it works.

hodaka · July 19, 2006, 08:44 PM

The electronic cleaning device will plate out the copper. I think that if you get it too clean the accuracy may diminish a bit. Lately I've been using the foam stuff. Seems to do the job without much elbow grease.

Wildalaska · July 20, 2006, 12:01 AM

All of these so called wonder cleaners still arent a substitute for elbow grease

WildoldfashionedAlaska

dfaugh · July 20, 2006, 08:01 AM

I'm gonna respectfully dissagree with WildoldfashionedAlaska, on this one. The foaming bore cleaners are just short of "miracle" products.

I had (have) an old Mauser that had a ridiculously dirty bore when I got it...good rifling but it looked like the inside of a chimney. I spent several hours using the traditional methods...Finally got it looking (and shooting)decent, but every time I cleaned it, I was STILL getting way more stuff (Especially copper) out than I should for the amount of rounds fired.

My gunshop guy gave me a partial can of Foaming Bore Cleaner (Outers I think). So I set the gun up with the muzzle sloping slightly downward, stuck the nozzle in the barrel (NOTE: get it in there DEEP, this stuff come out with lots 'o pressure!). I gave it a squirt until some came out the muzzle (VERY blue). repeated it every 10 minutes for about 2 hours, until no more blue came out. Ran 1 patch through, looked down the bore and was astonished to see the perverbial "Mirror Bore". I subsequently used it on an old SMLE, that was bad, but not nearly as bad as the Mauser. Good stuff, there, too.

I also like it because there's less risk of doing any damage while cleaning. (Yes, I know this should be true of traditional methods, if you do it right, but I'm a klutz.)

Now, note that I only used it for the initial cleaning to get years of accumulated junk outa there. Now, I clean those guns the same as any other. But, if you've got a really nasty bore, I highly recommend trying one of the foaming cleaners. They seem really expensive (about $12 for a small can around here), but go a REALLY long way.

U.S.SFC_RET · July 20, 2006, 11:20 AM

Thanks Dfaugh
I give the foam a try.

nbkky71 · July 20, 2006, 02:09 PM

The foam is good stuff and I use it all the time, but for the really stubborn crud you can't go wrong with JB bore cleaning compound + a little elbow grease.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...il.aspx?p=1160

Ledbetter · July 20, 2006, 05:21 PM

Got any Blue Wonder? It's the best I've tried on WWII era bores.

Harry Bonar · July 20, 2006, 08:01 PM

Sir:
Wildalaska is deat-nuts correct!
All of the work you'l do with all the products will do one thing - remove metal from the bore and make it oversize.
An old mechanic told me long ago, "son, you don't get an over-haul out of a can!"
Yes, you can clean it up to some degree just as I've cleaned up some 6.5X50 Japs' - but it never will be new again!
There is but one way and one way ONLY to remedy this - change the bbl!
Check the ser. number on your springfield to see if the action is a high or low numbered one - then change that bbl!
Harry B.

P.S. Shoot it; you may find it drives tacks like it is!

**44 AMP** · July 23, 2006, 02:42 AM

A few years ago I ran across a product called RB-17. Unbelieveable stuff. They have a website, but don't sell direct to the public anymore. Your gunshop can order it, if you aren't close to one of their distributors.

this stuff is nontoxic, biodegradable, and removes lead, copper, doesn't take a lot of work, clean the bore as usual, then a few passes with this stuff on a brush (it is a gel), then wait about 20 min. Start running patches through. You will be amazed. Everything comes out. It ain't cheap, but it works wonders.

ddskehan · July 23, 2006, 08:09 AM

I recently started using bore foams on my old guns. The firdt one I tried was Outers brand. It worked great! Just make sure you hang it muzzle down and spray thru the chamber end. I follow about 10 minutes later with with a brush. I always finish it off with breakfree. It may take several applications of the foam to get everything out.

**Unclenick** · July 23, 2006, 07:28 PM

The newest miracle chemistries remove metal by chelation. That applies to both rust removers and bore cleaners. RB-17 may be one? That's new to me. Bore Tech's Eliminator is one for certain. At $10 for 4. oz, it sounds awfully expensive, but their reviews show they do in a few patches what the conventional cleaners require many to accomplish. Gunzilla may be another. Bore Tech's is the only one I've seen unpaid reviews of, so I intend to try it, but have some Gunzilla to try first.

Bore fouling's relationship to accuracy depends on the nature of the fouling. Some years ago Merrill Martin wrote a Precision Shooting article on what he termed "Carbon Tunnel Syndrome", suggesting that a carbon filler developed on the surface of a bore steel and helped accuracy and might be best left unmolested if possible. Any evenly distributed fouling may do this in theory.

On the other hand, metal jacket fouling has a nasty tendency to accumulate nearer the breech end of the barrel were pressures and temperatures are highest, narrowing the bore only at that location. This has a detrimental effect on accuracy because it squeezes the bullet down as it passes through. This tends to distort the bullet a little and to allow it to tip slightly and unpredictably when pressure bumps it back up after passing the constriction. Howe (Modern Gunsmithing, 1941) describes a build-up of this fouling as the first thing to look for when a customer complains his gun isn’t as accurate as it used to be. He suggests employing special solutions that remove it as a good money making activity for gunsmiths, since it is easy and seems to miraculously restore accuracy. There is some general agreement in the shooting community that a barrel which tightens at the muzzle can benefit accuracy, and a perfectly straight barrel may also shoot well, but one that is constricted at the breech is problematic and almost never shoots to the gun's potential.

So, without a bore scope you can't really tell what fouling you've got? I would go ahead and clean out what's there and shoot the gun back in, if need be. Up until now, you have not been using a bore cleaner that attacks copper fouling from bullet jackets. The commercial ones that do, except for the new chelating chemistries, will have ammonia or ammonium oleate in them. Check Father Frog's web site for home cleaning solutions to remove metal fouling if you like. For a severe case, the old lead-removing peracetic acid formula, a 50:50 mix of white vinegar (5% acetic acid) and hydrogen peroxide (3%) will aggressively get whatever metal is in there. You plug the breech with a neoprene stopper or a bore plug and pour it in, but don't leave it in for more than 10 minutes because, given enough time, it will go after steel. Be prepared to follow it up with an acid neutralizer. Formula 409 on a patch works well. Follow the neutralizer with a dry patch, then chase it all down by pouring boiling water through the bore. That’s the way 03's used to be cleaned in the corrosive primer days. They’re used to it. And don't let the vinegar and peroxide overflow onto your finish. This stuff will froth up as it attacks the fouling, so pour gradually until you see bubbles breaking near the muzzle, and no further. It will turn turquoise as it acquires copper. It remains clear when attacking lead.

A gentler approach is to get some Shooters Choice and again plug the breech with a neoprene stopper or bore plug and fill the barrel and let it sit for 24 hours. Then pour it out and run your dry patches. Benchrest shooters have mixed Shooter's Choice with Kroil for years. Butch's Bore Shine is another good choice. The makers told me they have left steel blanks in it for up to six months and a microscope showed no sign of etching, despite its relative aggressiveness.

Nick

U.S.SFC_RET · July 27, 2006, 07:20 PM

Unclenick Thank you for the tip. I '' try anything once. Point well taken.

Dave Haven · July 28, 2006, 12:00 AM

Quote:

I have saved a lot of elbow grease with Wipe-Out foam cleaner.

Wipe-Out is elbow grease in a can.

July 18, 2006, 06:20 PM	#1
U.S.SFC_RET Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2005 Location: The Old line State Posts: 282	What does it take to thoroughly clean out an old rifle bore I have an old Remington 03A3 that I have tried to clean out with a good .30 bore brush and Kroil and a 1/2 ton of bore patches. I've tried soaking with kroil over time with a good brushing and lots of patches only to discover that once I run the bore brush through again I dirty up more patches. I repeat this over and over again. Soak, brush, brush, brush, swab, swab, swab. The bore brush is tight. I've tried CLP, KROIL and a mixture of the two. I still get dirty patches. Comments if you could. __________________ 1. Treat every firearm as if it were loaded. 2. Never point a firearm at anything you do not intend to shoot. 3. Keep the finger off the trigger and firearm on safe until ready to shoot. 4. Know the target and what's beyond it.

July 19, 2006, 04:22 PM	#3
ElkSlayer6x5 Member Join Date: June 30, 2006 Location: Cottage Grove Oregon Posts: 39	Try This Get your self some butch's bore shine and a nylon 30 cal brush soak a patch and run er through the bore repeat a few times then put on the nylon brush get that wet with the bbs and start workin that thing full stroke chamber to muzzle do this many many times till your arm gets sore ....... repeating swabin and brushin tell you run a patch and it comes out clean.... the patch will have a blue green look to it that is copper fouling the bbs will eat up a brass brush so make sure to use nylon Also if it is realy bad give it a few swabs and let it sit for a bit between swabs and scrubin It helps to mount rifle in cleaning station and to add in keepin the mess in check use a bore guide and a trick i like to do that keeps my wife off my butt put a 20 oz plastic soda bottle over the muzzle wrap a strip of cloth around barrel so bottle will fit nice it will catch all spray from brushing and colect used patches that is if you usea pionted jeg for your patches ,once done remove and whip off any remaning stuff once im close to being finished i remove just so i can see patch with ease __________________ good health and better hunting

July 19, 2006, 06:53 PM	#6
raktrak Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2005 Posts: 138	Cleaning O3A3 WE use a product called Extreme Clean and it works.

July 19, 2006, 08:44 PM	#7
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	Outers Foul Out? The electronic cleaning device will plate out the copper. I think that if you get it too clean the accuracy may diminish a bit. Lately I've been using the foam stuff. Seems to do the job without much elbow grease.

July 20, 2006, 08:01 AM	#9
dfaugh Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2002 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 1,715	I'm gonna respectfully dissagree with WildoldfashionedAlaska, on this one. The foaming bore cleaners are just short of "miracle" products. I had (have) an old Mauser that had a ridiculously dirty bore when I got it...good rifling but it looked like the inside of a chimney. I spent several hours using the traditional methods...Finally got it looking (and shooting)decent, but every time I cleaned it, I was STILL getting way more stuff (Especially copper) out than I should for the amount of rounds fired. My gunshop guy gave me a partial can of Foaming Bore Cleaner (Outers I think). So I set the gun up with the muzzle sloping slightly downward, stuck the nozzle in the barrel (NOTE: get it in there DEEP, this stuff come out with lots 'o pressure!). I gave it a squirt until some came out the muzzle (VERY blue). repeated it every 10 minutes for about 2 hours, until no more blue came out. Ran 1 patch through, looked down the bore and was astonished to see the perverbial "Mirror Bore". I subsequently used it on an old SMLE, that was bad, but not nearly as bad as the Mauser. Good stuff, there, too. I also like it because there's less risk of doing any damage while cleaning. (Yes, I know this should be true of traditional methods, if you do it right, but I'm a klutz.) Now, note that I only used it for the initial cleaning to get years of accumulated junk outa there. Now, I clean those guns the same as any other. But, if you've got a really nasty bore, I highly recommend trying one of the foaming cleaners. They seem really expensive (about $12 for a small can around here), but go a REALLY long way. __________________ "If you Listen to Fools, the Mob Rules" "No one has the answer, but one thing is true. You'e got to turn on evil, when its coming after you. You've gotta face it down,and when it tries to hide, you've got to go in after it, and never be denied. Time is running out...Let's roll. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for love. We're going after satan, on the wings of a dove. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for truth. Let's not let our children grow up fearful in their youth."

July 18, 2006, 06:50 PM	#2
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	Hoppes on a clean brush, scrub scrub scrub Gunk out on patches, scrub scrub scrub Copper cutter till the blue gets faint, scrub scrub scrub Repeat over and over again till clean WildelbowgreaseAlaska

July 19, 2006, 04:56 PM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	I have saved a lot of elbow grease with Wipe-Out foam cleaner. It works very well on a new Savage barrel with a lot of tool marks. Dry out the other stuff and squirt the barrel full of foam. Let it stand 20 minutes, wipe out, repeat a couple of times. Then leave it full of foam overnight.

July 19, 2006, 06:17 PM	#5
tINY Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2005 Location: Orygun Posts: 2,589	You say "the bore brush". Have you cleaned the brush? Maybe try a new one? -tINY

July 20, 2006, 12:01 AM	#8
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	All of these so called wonder cleaners still arent a substitute for elbow grease WildoldfashionedAlaska

July 20, 2006, 11:20 AM	#10
U.S.SFC_RET Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2005 Location: The Old line State Posts: 282	Thanks Dfaugh I give the foam a try. __________________ 1. Treat every firearm as if it were loaded. 2. Never point a firearm at anything you do not intend to shoot. 3. Keep the finger off the trigger and firearm on safe until ready to shoot. 4. Know the target and what's beyond it.

July 20, 2006, 02:09 PM	#11
nbkky71 Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Location: Davidson, NC Posts: 417	The foam is good stuff and I use it all the time, but for the really stubborn crud you can't go wrong with JB bore cleaning compound + a little elbow grease. http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...il.aspx?p=1160

July 20, 2006, 05:21 PM	#12
Ledbetter Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2000 Location: California USA Posts: 4,533	Got any Blue Wonder? It's the best I've tried on WWII era bores. __________________ Regards, Ledbetter from thefiringline TFL #4573 NRA for Life Winchester Canyon Gun Club for Life

July 20, 2006, 08:01 PM	#13
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	bore cleaning Sir: Wildalaska is deat-nuts correct! All of the work you'l do with all the products will do one thing - remove metal from the bore and make it oversize. An old mechanic told me long ago, "son, you don't get an over-haul out of a can!" Yes, you can clean it up to some degree just as I've cleaned up some 6.5X50 Japs' - but it never will be new again! There is but one way and one way ONLY to remedy this - change the bbl! Check the ser. number on your springfield to see if the action is a high or low numbered one - then change that bbl! Harry B. P.S. Shoot it; you may find it drives tacks like it is!

July 23, 2006, 02:42 AM	#14
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,811	Another product A few years ago I ran across a product called RB-17. Unbelieveable stuff. They have a website, but don't sell direct to the public anymore. Your gunshop can order it, if you aren't close to one of their distributors. this stuff is nontoxic, biodegradable, and removes lead, copper, doesn't take a lot of work, clean the bore as usual, then a few passes with this stuff on a brush (it is a gel), then wait about 20 min. Start running patches through. You will be amazed. Everything comes out. It ain't cheap, but it works wonders. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

July 23, 2006, 08:09 AM	#15
ddskehan Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2006 Location: grafton, ma Posts: 225	I recently started using bore foams on my old guns. The firdt one I tried was Outers brand. It worked great! Just make sure you hang it muzzle down and spray thru the chamber end. I follow about 10 minutes later with with a brush. I always finish it off with breakfree. It may take several applications of the foam to get everything out.

July 23, 2006, 07:28 PM	#16
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	The newest miracle chemistries remove metal by chelation. That applies to both rust removers and bore cleaners. RB-17 may be one? That's new to me. Bore Tech's Eliminator is one for certain. At $10 for 4. oz, it sounds awfully expensive, but their reviews show they do in a few patches what the conventional cleaners require many to accomplish. Gunzilla may be another. Bore Tech's is the only one I've seen unpaid reviews of, so I intend to try it, but have some Gunzilla to try first. Bore fouling's relationship to accuracy depends on the nature of the fouling. Some years ago Merrill Martin wrote a Precision Shooting article on what he termed "Carbon Tunnel Syndrome", suggesting that a carbon filler developed on the surface of a bore steel and helped accuracy and might be best left unmolested if possible. Any evenly distributed fouling may do this in theory. On the other hand, metal jacket fouling has a nasty tendency to accumulate nearer the breech end of the barrel were pressures and temperatures are highest, narrowing the bore only at that location. This has a detrimental effect on accuracy because it squeezes the bullet down as it passes through. This tends to distort the bullet a little and to allow it to tip slightly and unpredictably when pressure bumps it back up after passing the constriction. Howe (Modern Gunsmithing, 1941) describes a build-up of this fouling as the first thing to look for when a customer complains his gun isn’t as accurate as it used to be. He suggests employing special solutions that remove it as a good money making activity for gunsmiths, since it is easy and seems to miraculously restore accuracy. There is some general agreement in the shooting community that a barrel which tightens at the muzzle can benefit accuracy, and a perfectly straight barrel may also shoot well, but one that is constricted at the breech is problematic and almost never shoots to the gun's potential. So, without a bore scope you can't really tell what fouling you've got? I would go ahead and clean out what's there and shoot the gun back in, if need be. Up until now, you have not been using a bore cleaner that attacks copper fouling from bullet jackets. The commercial ones that do, except for the new chelating chemistries, will have ammonia or ammonium oleate in them. Check Father Frog's web site for home cleaning solutions to remove metal fouling if you like. For a severe case, the old lead-removing peracetic acid formula, a 50:50 mix of white vinegar (5% acetic acid) and hydrogen peroxide (3%) will aggressively get whatever metal is in there. You plug the breech with a neoprene stopper or a bore plug and pour it in, but don't leave it in for more than 10 minutes because, given enough time, it will go after steel. Be prepared to follow it up with an acid neutralizer. Formula 409 on a patch works well. Follow the neutralizer with a dry patch, then chase it all down by pouring boiling water through the bore. That’s the way 03's used to be cleaned in the corrosive primer days. They’re used to it. And don't let the vinegar and peroxide overflow onto your finish. This stuff will froth up as it attacks the fouling, so pour gradually until you see bubbles breaking near the muzzle, and no further. It will turn turquoise as it acquires copper. It remains clear when attacking lead. A gentler approach is to get some Shooters Choice and again plug the breech with a neoprene stopper or bore plug and fill the barrel and let it sit for 24 hours. Then pour it out and run your dry patches. Benchrest shooters have mixed Shooter's Choice with Kroil for years. Butch's Bore Shine is another good choice. The makers told me they have left steel blanks in it for up to six months and a microscope showed no sign of etching, despite its relative aggressiveness. Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 27, 2006, 07:20 PM	#17
U.S.SFC_RET Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2005 Location: The Old line State Posts: 282	Unclenick Thank you for the tip. I '' try anything once. Point well taken. __________________ 1. Treat every firearm as if it were loaded. 2. Never point a firearm at anything you do not intend to shoot. 3. Keep the finger off the trigger and firearm on safe until ready to shoot. 4. Know the target and what's beyond it.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search