Deer Hunters: Are you satisfied now?

[aerod1]

Don't kid yourself, Indians would plant food plots to hunt over, whether their name is Cochise or Mamaw or whatever. I never criticise the way another person hunts, as long as it is legal. There are geographical reasons why some states hunt different than others.
Some people don't like bow hunting. It is a legal means of harvesting deer and I don't have a problem with it. As a matter of fact, I consider it enjoyable.
To each his own.
Jim Hall

[Will Beararms]

The primary issue here is the chronic waisting thing and the practices that lead up to it. I can stomach hunting over food plots, the feeders and the fences until we see something like CWD.

America has done a great job managing the herd of Whitetail-------------nay exceptional. Manage is just that, it means we constantly improve and monitor our results changing when necessary.

Now we are faced with a crossroad and it is time to make adjustments to our practices. This means putting our selfish desires aside and making sure our grandchildren enjoy what many of us have been privy to. CWD could ruin it for all of us.

What others do is beyond my control and it is their right. Hunting to me invloves starting in August each year patterning deer according to their sleeping and feeding habits. If I hit the rut that is a bonus. It is a challenge to get between a Buck's point A and point B for the kill. If I get to see wildlife period that's great and it I get a deer, that's a cherry on the Sundae. No feeders, no salt licks just preparation and opportunity.

I am in favor of feeding after the hunt during hard winters BTW.

aerod1: They probably did hunt over food plots but that was before Tom Thumb, Albertson's or Brookshires.

[dZ]

you should check out
http://www.qdma.com/articles/list.asp?CAT=FOOD


The Quality Deer Management Association (QDMA) is a non-profit wildlife conservation organization dedicated to ensuring a high-quality and sustainable future for white-tailed deer and white-tailed deer hunting. Founded in 1988, the QDMA currently has over 12,000 members in 48 states and several foreign countries including over 600 deer management professionals - more than any other white-tailed deer organization. The QDMA has developed numerous partnerships with state wildlife agencies, timber companies, hunting groups, and product manufacturers. These partnerships have increased both the awareness of the QDMA and participation in the Association's management philosophy, Quality Deer Management (QDM). Without question, the QDMA is rapidly becoming the most respected and influential white-tailed deer organization in the United States.


The QDMA promotes:


* Safe and ethical hunting.
* Adherence to wildlife and trespass laws.
* Adequate harvests of adult does.
* Restraint in harvesting young bucks.
* Hunter involvement in education and management.
* Cooperation with wildlife biologists and enforcement officers.
* Education of hunters and non-hunters toward a better understanding of wildlife management.
* Stewardship and appreciation of all wildlife.

[MeekAndMild]

Pardon, but the Indians used to manage their hunting lands too, burning the forests every few years to creat vast artificial prairies over much of the states of Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama, Mississippi and Georgia.

[Art Eatman]

Meek, the question there is whether is was deliberate "management", or just using fire to drive game to waiting ambushers. This latter method of hunting was known to be used in the plains country of the midwest, mostly driving buffalo either to ambushers or over cliffs.

Art

[444]

I am not sure just how closely related to the thread this is but, a few points.
Hunting over bait. Much hunting, if not most hunting is done over bait. We just didn't put it there. Some people hunt over cornfields, some people hunt over water, some people hunt over apples, whatever. A lot of successful hunting centers around finding where the animals feed, where the animals drink, where the animals bed. What about using doe in heat, is that bait ? What about using a doe herself as bait for a buck ? Dispite all this I don't think I would want to hunt over a feeder. I very well might do it if given the opportunity, but I wouldn't feel like I earned a trophy like I would if I had still hunted it.
Paying $2500 or whatever to hunt.
I grew up in Ohio. Deer hunting consisted of going down to the hardware store and buying a tag. I went home and walked right out of the house into the woods. I now live in Nevada. Here we have a lottery for big game tags. Last year I applied for Mule Deer, Antelope, Bull Elk, and Desert Bighorn Sheep. I was drawn for nothing. In other words, I couldn't hunt big game in Nevada last year. I also applied for a cow elk tag in Arizona (Arizona also has a tag lottery) and was not drawn. So, I didn't hunt big game at all. Of course you can go somewhere that you can buy a tag over the counter to hunt big game. But where do you go ? When you get there where do you hunt (where is it legal ? who owns the property? You can't scout so the whole trip may be a waste of time..................) If you get something, what do you do with it (taxidermy, butchering, cold transport etc. a lot of prep work if you don't know someone there). I have hunted out of state several times, but we knew people who hunted there and they clued us in on a lot of the details. Anyway, I would have gladly paid $2500 to have somewhere to hunt and someone to take care of the logistics. The funny part about it is that if I paid to hunt somewhere and they put me in a stand along a major trail leading to a feeder, I might not even know that the feeder was there.
Stand Hunting: I guess there is no disagreement on stand hunting. There are some places where this is THE way to hunt whitetail deer. I never had any luck trying to stalk deer in Ohio. Really thick woods, leaves on the ground etc. made this a tactic that few found effective. Although if it recently rained, it might be a more viable option. Here in the wide open west I see no point to stand hunting with a rifle. I enjoy hunts very similar to what Powderman described. Out here my big gripes are the road hunters and their closely related cousins who "hunt" from the back of an ATV. I consider this shooting rather than hunting.
I have seen some pretty tacky operations in my book where elk were raised and bred like livestock then hunted within fences for considerably more than $2500. I have no interest in that and can't imagine how anyone could consider that sport.

[BIGR]

Never been lucky enough to hunt deer in a fenced in area. Always did it the hard way. Yea I have spotted them in the woods and slipped up on them and killed them. By the way my ancestors were Cherokee Indians.

[Bwana Earl]

Lots of agreement with the posted replies, especially Art and Stinger. To each his own, and that often changes with opportunity, maturity and finances. Just hope each thinks it through for him/her self. I don't condemn their choices just because they differ from mine.
Two things I would probably try if I could. One is a high $ exotic species hunt.
The other is the good old Indian method. Set fires to drive the game over a cliff or into the water and the then slit their helpless throats as they swim or flounder on broken legs. That way you don't have to discard the bloodshot off shoulder and the pelt is undamaged. Gotta hand it to them, in good years they didn't starve and they made efficient use of what they harvested. No cliffs or water handy? Then let's go with a noose snare or deadfall trap. They hunted to keep their family alive. Woodsmanship was developed and it excelled because it was effective. Their innate longing for a relationship with the Creator God gave rise to "medicine men" who took advantage of their ignorance. He gained pride, status and power with tricks and intimidation. Ain't no such thing as a noble savage, just survival oriented folk without the latest technology.
Otherwise I will stick to ambushing with gun, bow and blackpowder. Spear is still illegal, but if they open up a summer spear season, I'll help control the population and enjoy some veal-ison.
If God had endowed me with fang and claw instead of brains and a conscious which kicks in when I am not in survival mode, then I would be limited to those tools. I don't hunt bear with a 4 inch blade because Paul Mauser and those who followed managed to produce a marvelous Ruger 77 in 300 Win mag. Some use a fence and good biology in addition.

[Art Eatman]

"Yea I have spotted them in the woods and slipped up on them and killed them." Sounds good to me.

I spotted a nice fat little eight-pointer one day; followed him along for a while, and when ten feet away tossed a rock and hit him on the butt.

Cherokee better be careful when old Scotch/Irish/German mongrel is around.

Art

[aerod1]

By the way my ancestors were Cherokee Indians.

.....and that means what?

Jim Hall

[topstrap]

Quite a discussion here, I enjoyed reading them and can see both sides of the arguement. I also live in Ohio, can look out into my backyard nearly any morning or evening and pick from many deer, turkeys, squirrels to shoot when season is in. Some of us are lucky to live in an area to do that and most of us take it for granted. I do not hunt much anymore unless there was to be a particular deer that really turned me on in the area that I've seen and would like to hunt.

The reason I decided to post in this thread is because I saw the YO Ranch mentioned. I did hunt at the YO last fall on Blackie Sleevas Handgun Hunt and Walk Thru Shoot. We all used handguns to hunt whatever particular animal we were wanting. The Ranch is quite large and does have tall fences on it's perimeter. It's over 40,000 acres which makes it a bit hard to hunt by foot if you're hunting for a particular type of animal. I wanted an Aoudad, I don't know how many have ever hunted an Aoudad before but you don't just walk out into the field and shoot one like a cow in a pasture. I sat huddled down out in the middle of a huge rockpile against a rock ledge with God knows how many Rattle snakes around me and waited for the slim chance that I'd see one. After 2 days of hunting and praying for the chance to see one I decided not to waste my $2000.00 min for this hunt and walk thru shoot competition and decided to look for a nice Axis Deer. Saw a few but you still have to look for a nice one, try to stalk within handgun range (44 mag revolver) and make a killing shot. I accomplished both and felt good about the shot.

I did ride with the guide late one evening after dark when he asked if I wanted to take a ride and spread the special nutitional suppliment they give the deer. While riding along and watching the deer (MANY as in herds and lots of HUGE BUCKS came running towards the truck to get that feed. I saw Bucks that would absolutely make anyone drool come running up so fast to the truck that I'm suprised that some didn't run into the side of the truck....... but................ when we were out in the daytime hunting out Exotics where did all these deer go to? Beats me but they sure do know how to dissapear. They do have feeding machines that they can load and there is also stands located near them for hunters that may only be able to get away from their businesses or offices for a day or two for a Deer Hunt. They also are able to put a disabled shooter in them which allows them a chance to do something that they may not be able to do without the stand and feeder. It's not my cup of tea but I do not judge anyone else for the way they hunt. I'm still not sure that searching for a glimpse of the animal I was hunting from a vehicle and then making a stalk, hoping it doesn't run to the far side of the ranch and dissapear is what others will call hunting. I still had to make a shot that I felt was above normal to make a clean kill, sure the guide gutted it and hauled it back to the Ranch house but I've done that before and it was actually kinda nice to not do it.

About that Aoudad, finally did get a glimpse of a small herd that dissapeared into the brush so fast we only got a blur of white. We stalked them about 300 yards thru the brush, cactus, rocks and snakes, the guide stopped me and kept pointing, I finally saw a patch of whiteish/gray thru a small opening in a shrub. Couldn't tell if it was an Aoudad or a sheet handing on a clothesline, They were only about 60 yards away but as I moved slightly I was able to see one lone eyeball and it was looking right at us... that was all it took and they were gone faster than we could imagine... yepper, nothing like hunting a cow in a field.. shame the Aoudad didn't learn the rules.

Some of the animals are easy to shoot but others offer quite a challenge. I'm still going to go for an Aoudad again this year, I'll probably still be out by myself all day but I'm planning on one of those camo screens to help screen me, the Aoudad have eyesight that beyond belief. The last time I looked out my backyard I didn't see any Audad and I sure can't afford to go to their native country and spend a couple of weeks hunting for one. We all have our own idea of what is a successful hunt, I have a friend that uses a longbow that he made from a limb, makes his own shafts and chips his own tips from rough flint, he thinks any other type of hunting is cheating... maybe he has an argument about that but it's not for me.... I guess somewhere there is a hunter that sits in a tree or behind a log and as a deer strolls by they jump out and grab it by the neck and uses his knife or bare hands to fill his tag....... hmmmmm might be interesting to watch.

It's getting so that the large Game ranches ar the only way for some to hunt and also to hunt certain species of animals. Even out in the country where I live the farms are being divided and the wealthy city guys are banding together and buying up vacated strip mine ground and large farms for their own hunting and do not allow the locals that used it for years to continue hunting on it.......... what is the solution?

Just my opinions... not meant to stir the pot.

[BIGR]

Hey Art,

You know they say you can't sneak up on an Indian. I'M just joking about that. It was my mothers side of the family that was of Cherokee decent. My fathers family would be of some European decent-not sure and have been trying to find out. I have just a little Indian blood.
I guess i kind of strayed off of the main topic here. Stalking or stand hunting are my favorite methods when deer hunting. I guess each hunter has his own method that works. I just can't wait til deer season rolls back around again. Have a great day ART.

[Art Eatman]

Hey! Cowboys and Injuns; I'll be on either side. I keep telling my wife to fiddle her 1/16th Cherokee bloodline up enough for an easy SBA loan...

Buyum deer ranch. Buildum feeder.

(Sorry 'bout that. Cain't help it. Character defect.)

Art

[Bwana Earl]

Art,
Has anyonyone ever used the word incorrigible in the same sentence with your name?
Character doesn't have defects, character is just the sum of all your 'fects. Some 'fects is uh-huh's, some 'fects is uh-oh's. Get enough of both and you got your character.
And Bwana Earl believes you got CHARACTER in Spades.
Ain't enough of us yet, but more's a'coming.

[DAVID NANCARROW]

Eat um bambi?

[Art Eatman]

There wuz a time when I wuz made out to be the perfect example of a horrible example. Mostly by parents of daughters. My own Momma tol' me, one time, "You're the spitting image of your father, and I could spit on both of you."

Incorrigible? Me?

Yup.

In the immortal words of Allen Damron, "I didn't grow up; I just got bigger." My claim to fame is that I have pushed adolescence beyond all previous limits.

Art

[H&H,hunter]

Being 1/2 Germaho 1/4 Scotekiee and 1/4 Iriteec I feel as though I have some good input in this thread. I've experienced the high dollar high fence "hunt" in South Texas. I didn't pay for the experience as I was a guest of the owner. It was a neat experience in that you get to see lots and lots of wildlife from a corn baited stand. it's not my cup o tea however as I can't take stand hunting, not moving around drives me nuts.
My main problem with the whole texas hunting model is this: When or where does the average guy get to do any decent hunting in the Lonestar state? It seems to me that with the prices the way they are and going up all the time we don't need peta, land owners in texas are ging to kill hunting as we know it all on there own. The prices I see being charged prohibit the average joe from hunting much less some dad wanting to take his kids out for a couple of days of deer hunting. It's getting to the point where only the wealthy are afforded the priviledge of hunting and that will be the end of it for all of us eventually. If there are any decent places to hunt in Tx that are affordable I've never found them.
Now for the rant of the day--- If I hear one more Texan complaining about the non-resident fees in my home states of NM & CO I'll be forced to remind him of the trophy fee for either an Elk or a Whitetail on any private ranch in Texas.

[Will Beararms]

Good points all. My "maindest" concern is this Chronic Waisting thing. It might be a good idea to let nature take its course for a while and allow the population of deer to be regulated naturally.

I hunt over water, around does and parallel to the "freeways" deer make in the woods. That is to say I find the well traveled deer trail and go above it or below it until I find the lesser traveled path. I guess you could say these are baited areas.

The head of the Oklahoma Game and Fish told me in a visit a couple of years afgo that his research indicates feeders make deer think there is more food than there actually is leading to over-breeding. Hey that's just one man's opinion but I see the logic.

One thing that we are guilty of on our heavy timber lease in S Arkanasas is selective cutting of mature timber which really causes a flurry of activity with the new browse created and makes for some great shooting lanes.

I will concede that Indians hunted over bait for day to day sustinance versus a profit motive. There's nothing wrong with a profit motive provided the herd is not harmed in the long run inho.

[Art Eatman]

Back in the 1970s, a bunch of us leased a ranch north of Uvalde, Texas. We were quite willing to pay the rancher an amount of money equal to his annual school district taxes. 7,000 acres; $6,000 a year, or $0.83 per acre for those at College Station. There were a couple of old houses--1880s vintage--to use as bunkhouses, and we could cut firewood for camp. Sep 1 through the end of deer season at New Year's.

Some guys from Houston upped the ante to $3/acre. That was the end of us.

The more the federal government has gotten into the education business since 1962, the higher the ad valorem taxes on land to pay for the school district. Another unintended consequence which all those real smart city folks said would never happen.

A school district does not care one iota if there is drouth or not: You Pay! Thus deer become another cash crop, and our larger population with its greater amount of disposable income competes for leases. Economics 101 never quits operating...

Inflation hits ranchers just as it does the rest of us. I bought my first-ever new car, a special-order 1971 Chev 3/4-ton van with no interior and heavy-duty everything and turned the key and drove away for $3,100.

You ain't gonna find a prime deer ranch for $300 a gun for a small group. You ain't gonna find nickel coffee, or 25-cent Budweiser in a bar, either.

So...I worked 8 to 5 on salary, and 5 to midnight for me. After 15 or so years, I didn't have to do the 8 to 5 anymore. Wasn't rich, but I owned my own huntin' territory, all paid for. But the backs of my hands have more scar tissue than skin, from under-hood tight spots--but, heck, a car won't really run right without a little blood on the motor.

, Art

[DAVID NANCARROW]

Just between you and me, Art. My deer lease in Mason is $300 per year. For that you have access to the land. You want a feeder or deer stand-you do it yourself, as well as sleeping quarters. I towed a 20' trailer down there and set it up. You want water? Better bring that too. Some may holler about having to bring/build everything, but I personally like to do it myself, and I have no clue who else offers the same deal in the Texas Hill country.

[Art Eatman]

David: Shhhh! Don't tell anybody!

A lot of that Hill Country is overloaded with deer, resulting in fairly small deer. Same with my old family place down below Cuero. Got hogs down there that stand near as tall as some of the deer...

Art

[Mannlicher]

Right or wrong, I cannot for the life of me understand why people hunt like that. Guides are ok, if you are hunting an area you are not familier with. Even then, I prefer to get directions, and let me do the hunting. A guide should not be finding the game for you. If you are not hunter enough to find your game, you should not be out there.

I learned to hunt from an old retired Methodist preacher. A true son of the South, he knew every thing there was to know about the woods, and the birds and animals, fish and other critters that lived there. Under his guidence, I learned to track, trail, identify my quary from droppings, markings, footprints.

To this day, I can follow a trail, and walk up on deer as they sleep. My preferred hunting locations are the swamps around North Florida lakes, and the creeks that feed and drain them. I love the thick palmettos, and thickets that fill the planted pine forests.

I still hunt mostly, and do some tree standing, but never, never hunt over planted areas, or put out salt blocks. Just bad form. It is my intention to hunt, not just ambush.

[Art Eatman]

But, Mannlicher! You started out with a guide!

Hypothetical case: You, Mannlicher, were born and raised in Brooklyn. You grow up in a typical city scene. You're bright, and somewhere along the way you invent a widget and the royalties make you a 30-year-old millionaire.

One day you pick up a copy of "Outdoor Life" at somebody's office, and say to yourself, "By golly, I'd like to try that! I'll bet elk hunting is fun!"

Which is better: You go all on your own to the Rockies, or you use a guide for a season or two before striking out on your own?

Nobody was ever born an expert anything, except for suction and pooping.

, Art

[Mannlicher]

Art,

My reply was my opinion. I did not slam others who hunt differently. I don't understand the' thrill of the hunt' when some one else does the hunting.

Growing up in Brooklyn is another subject for another thread. lol

[Art Eatman]

Aw, I know. But, some folks like drag-racing while I prefer sports cars on a road circuit...

Still, everybody has to start somewhere and develop his own system. I never had anybody to teach me anything about hunting, other than reading Ernest Thompson Seton's books. Around age eight or so, my grandfather sorta threw his .22 rifle at me and pointed at the woods. He said, in effect, "Go thou from beneath my ^%$#$% feet!"

I went. Been gone, ever since.

, Art