VP shoots hunter - Page 2

kiov · February 16, 2006, 01:09 PM

I think Art makes the right points here concerning hunting safety.

This morning I saw the VP take responsiblity for the accident, which goes a long way with me. No excuses, no blame directed elsewhere. I gained more respect for the man. It wasn't the usual politician reply. Refreshing.

A reckless or irresponsible person would have been pointing at everyone and everything else to show how he wasn't to blame.

It just bugs me that this hurts pro-gun people since many non-shooters think this proves something. Still, hard to blame Cheney when he steps up and says, "I pulled the trigger. Its my fault, period."

kiov

FirstFreedom · February 21, 2006, 10:50 PM

Yes. And there is, at least in my state, at least for those born 1972 or later. I am grandfathered having been born before that, but all the young uns and everyone from here on out will have to participate in hunter education and pass the test at the end of the day to get any hunting license.

Wild Bill Bucks · February 22, 2006, 01:36 PM

Regardless what happened, I would still rather go bird hunting with Dick Cheney than go for a car ride with Ted Kennedy !!

Art Eatman · February 22, 2006, 06:47 PM

Wuz coffeeing with Jim Wilson, yesterday. He got a call from a WashPost reporter on the story. The reporter was up front, admitting he kneww nothing about guns and hunting.

Jim pointed out that if you're gonna go dove and quail hunting, you're gonna get "rained on". That's just part of the deal. Hunting can be dangerous. Same for snowboarding or football. Or commuting via motorcycle. Most of the time, it's merely a joking matter. This event was unusual in that regard.

Jim explained about the "delay" in law enforcement investigation: Most rural sheriffs know most of the ranchers in their counties. Now, the Armstrongs aren't a flight risk. The Vice-President of the United States is certainly not a flight risk. No "red flags" about the incident, so what's the rush? The priority is the medical attention and family notification and all that important stuff, not routine paperwork.

Art

PSE · February 22, 2006, 06:52 PM

everyone i know that quail hunts on a reg. basis has been peppered, peppered someone, or been w/ someone who has.

shureshot0471 · March 5, 2006, 01:00 PM

If joe bob and joe bill had the accdent would anybody ever hear bout this happens every year in Texas people the press is tearing this Country apart

Capt. Charlie · March 5, 2006, 01:30 PM

loggerhead · March 5, 2006, 04:47 PM

Art and pse, Gentlemen I have hunted quail for over 50 years, trained and sold bird dogs for awhile after I got out of the service and I have never known anyone to get "sprayed" during a quail hunt. I have known of a couple, but only a couple who were shot while quail hunting, always due to the shooters carelessness. I have also shot doves during this entire time and folks get "sprinkled" (we call it rained on) on practically every hunt, but I have know of a couple who got shot also while dove hunting and again due to carelessness.
In either case, getting shot is due to carelessness on the part of the shooter, I would hope nothing more and nothing less and getting sprayed is not a common occurance during quail hunting.
I challenge you to call a few large quail hunting reserve and ask them how many of their hunters got shot last year.

roy reali · March 5, 2006, 05:24 PM

I have never peppered anyone while hunting. I have never been peppered. Maybe if I hunt often enough and long enough it will happen, or maybe I am very picky about who I hunt with.

Art Eatman · March 5, 2006, 07:04 PM

Lordy!

Somewhere in one of these threads I commented that both Cheney and Whittington had lost situational awareness. Sure, that's carelessness, but rather than the generic word "carelessness", I preferred the more specific term for what happened.

Doesn't matter one iota if it's never happened to you. Or, to me. It has happened to others and will continue through the years. Somewhere, sometime, it's gonna happen to someone. 99% of the time, it's "rained on".

Art

Rimrock · March 5, 2006, 07:16 PM

[IMG]

[/IMG]

Rimrock

lizziedog1 · March 5, 2006, 07:25 PM

ROY
You will have to try harder next time.

roy reali · March 5, 2006, 09:38 PM

We all have seen gun safety rules. They are listed in most guns' owner's manuals. They are taught in hunter safety courses. Ammunition manufacturers use them is their advertising. Sometimes they are referred to as commandments. No matter where they are seen, they have the same basic gun safety rules. They might be worded different, but the messages are the same.

One rule that is always included has to do with identifying your target. It says that the intended target must be clearly visible and the background must be likewise. One is not to pull the trigger until these two requirements have been met. There is nothing in this rule that makes an exception for bird hunting. There is no asterick with an explantion that says that if one is following a fast, small bird with their shotgun, then this rule does not apply.

Whenever and wherever someone shoots someone else, a safety rule was violated. I will go home empty handed before I ever violate one of these rules. I will not hunt with anyone that thinks these rules are to be applied on a situational method.

Art Eatman · March 6, 2006, 10:55 AM

"I will not hunt with anyone that thinks these rules are to be applied on a situational method."

I don't think anybody who's discussed the event has advocated anything like that.

What I've tried to point out is what happens to people who've lost situational awareness, and have adrenalin pumping.

If ya just gotta talk about rules and commandments, the mainest rule about hunting in a group is that everybody has a mutual responsibility for ensuring that everybody knows everybody's location at all times.

Art

roy reali · March 6, 2006, 11:32 AM

If I have misunderstood you I apologize. But when you add terms like, "situational awareness" and "adrenalin" to you replies it comes across as though you are making alibies. Those two terms are not part of any gun safety rules I have ever read.

How would you like to be flying in a 767 at 40,000 feet with a pilot that has problems with situational awareness?

Art Eatman · March 6, 2006, 04:27 PM

Well, I guess if I have a conflict with the idea that rules = commandments, it's along the line that circumstances trump rules.

Sure, it's easy to agree with the rule that you should always be aware of what's behind your target. I fully agree.

But how about the group-hunt responsibility that Whittington should have made his location known? And, of course, Cheney should have been checking around to make sure of the location of the rest of the group, including Whittington.

And all that brings us to circumstance. Whittington didn't sing out as he approached. Cheney thought he was still back by the vehicle. Cheney gets focussed on the bird, and we all should know what happens to peripheral vision. Last, Cheney swings into the direction of a 4PM sun.

Circumstances cam:e together such that Cheney could not see Whittington in time to realize the mistake.

Okay. All that said: The Newsweek article said the quail flushed from behind Cheney. I guess it's at least halfway obvious that if you're with any sort of group, it's pretty difficult to do an about-face without covering somebody as you turn. IOW, don't go for that particular bird.

Nobody broke any rules on purpose. I just try to figure out how stuff happens so I can avoid having such a problem in my own future.

, Art

roy reali · March 6, 2006, 05:34 PM

The VP admitted that the Sun had been a factor. His vision was blurred by it. At that point, his following of the bird should have halted. It would be like shooting at a deer on ridge without knowing what is behind it.

Unless you are saying there is an exception to safety rules when small, fast birds are involved. You can use the blurred vision, adrenalin pumping excuse for most hunting accidents. The guy that shoots the steer can say that he was so excited that the horns looked like antlers. You could call that a situational circumstance too.

With all due respect, I would never hunt with someone with your attitude about hunting safety and accidents. This statement will probably get me flamed and or expelled from this forum. But I have strong feelings about this.

View Poll Results: Do you think there should be some kind of hunting education / training?
Yes	46	80.70%
No	11	19.30%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

March 5, 2006, 01:00 PM	#31
shureshot0471 Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2005 Location: In the sticks of East Texas Posts: 185	If joe bob and joe bill had the accdent would anybody ever hear bout this happens every year in Texas people the press is tearing this Country apart __________________ "Prefection is not attainable,but if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence." -Vince Lombardi "Gun control is putting that second bullet through the same hole the first one made." - Ted Nugent

March 5, 2006, 05:24 PM	#34
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Not Me I have never peppered anyone while hunting. I have never been peppered. Maybe if I hunt often enough and long enough it will happen, or maybe I am very picky about who I hunt with.

March 5, 2006, 07:16 PM	#36
Rimrock Junior member Join Date: February 19, 2006 Location: CA Posts: 273	[IMG][/IMG] Rimrock

March 5, 2006, 09:38 PM	#38
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Safety Rule We all have seen gun safety rules. They are listed in most guns' owner's manuals. They are taught in hunter safety courses. Ammunition manufacturers use them is their advertising. Sometimes they are referred to as commandments. No matter where they are seen, they have the same basic gun safety rules. They might be worded different, but the messages are the same. One rule that is always included has to do with identifying your target. It says that the intended target must be clearly visible and the background must be likewise. One is not to pull the trigger until these two requirements have been met. There is nothing in this rule that makes an exception for bird hunting. There is no asterick with an explantion that says that if one is following a fast, small bird with their shotgun, then this rule does not apply. Whenever and wherever someone shoots someone else, a safety rule was violated. I will go home empty handed before I ever violate one of these rules. I will not hunt with anyone that thinks these rules are to be applied on a situational method.

February 16, 2006, 01:09 PM	#26
kiov Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2004 Posts: 283	I think Art makes the right points here concerning hunting safety. This morning I saw the VP take responsiblity for the accident, which goes a long way with me. No excuses, no blame directed elsewhere. I gained more respect for the man. It wasn't the usual politician reply. Refreshing. A reckless or irresponsible person would have been pointing at everyone and everything else to show how he wasn't to blame. It just bugs me that this hurts pro-gun people since many non-shooters think this proves something. Still, hard to blame Cheney when he steps up and says, "I pulled the trigger. Its my fault, period." kiov

February 21, 2006, 10:50 PM	#27
FirstFreedom Junior member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A. Posts: 12,451	Yes. And there is, at least in my state, at least for those born 1972 or later. I am grandfathered having been born before that, but all the young uns and everyone from here on out will have to participate in hunter education and pass the test at the end of the day to get any hunting license.

February 22, 2006, 01:36 PM	#28
Wild Bill Bucks Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2005 Location: Southeastern Oklahoma, Next door to Sasquatch Posts: 1,266	Regardless what happened, I would still rather go bird hunting with Dick Cheney than go for a car ride with Ted Kennedy !!

February 22, 2006, 06:47 PM	#29
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Wuz coffeeing with Jim Wilson, yesterday. He got a call from a WashPost reporter on the story. The reporter was up front, admitting he kneww nothing about guns and hunting. Jim pointed out that if you're gonna go dove and quail hunting, you're gonna get "rained on". That's just part of the deal. Hunting can be dangerous. Same for snowboarding or football. Or commuting via motorcycle. Most of the time, it's merely a joking matter. This event was unusual in that regard. Jim explained about the "delay" in law enforcement investigation: Most rural sheriffs know most of the ranchers in their counties. Now, the Armstrongs aren't a flight risk. The Vice-President of the United States is certainly not a flight risk. No "red flags" about the incident, so what's the rush? The priority is the medical attention and family notification and all that important stuff, not routine paperwork. Art

February 22, 2006, 06:52 PM	#30
PSE Junior member Join Date: July 23, 2004 Location: stupids womb, SC Posts: 475	everyone i know that quail hunts on a reg. basis has been peppered, peppered someone, or been w/ someone who has.

March 5, 2006, 04:47 PM	#33
loggerhead Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2006 Location: Right of the Mississippi but South of the Mason Dixie line Posts: 132	Art and pse, Gentlemen I have hunted quail for over 50 years, trained and sold bird dogs for awhile after I got out of the service and I have never known anyone to get "sprayed" during a quail hunt. I have known of a couple, but only a couple who were shot while quail hunting, always due to the shooters carelessness. I have also shot doves during this entire time and folks get "sprinkled" (we call it rained on) on practically every hunt, but I have know of a couple who got shot also while dove hunting and again due to carelessness. In either case, getting shot is due to carelessness on the part of the shooter, I would hope nothing more and nothing less and getting sprayed is not a common occurance during quail hunting. I challenge you to call a few large quail hunting reserve and ask them how many of their hunters got shot last year.

March 5, 2006, 07:04 PM	#35
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Lordy! Somewhere in one of these threads I commented that both Cheney and Whittington had lost situational awareness. Sure, that's carelessness, but rather than the generic word "carelessness", I preferred the more specific term for what happened. Doesn't matter one iota if it's never happened to you. Or, to me. It has happened to others and will continue through the years. Somewhere, sometime, it's gonna happen to someone. 99% of the time, it's "rained on". Art

March 5, 2006, 07:25 PM	#37
lizziedog1 Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2005 Posts: 289	ROY You will have to try harder next time.

March 6, 2006, 10:55 AM	#39
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	"I will not hunt with anyone that thinks these rules are to be applied on a situational method." I don't think anybody who's discussed the event has advocated anything like that. What I've tried to point out is what happens to people who've lost situational awareness, and have adrenalin pumping. If ya just gotta talk about rules and commandments, the mainest rule about hunting in a group is that everybody has a mutual responsibility for ensuring that everybody knows everybody's location at all times. Art

March 6, 2006, 11:32 AM	#40
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Re:art Eatman If I have misunderstood you I apologize. But when you add terms like, "situational awareness" and "adrenalin" to you replies it comes across as though you are making alibies. Those two terms are not part of any gun safety rules I have ever read. How would you like to be flying in a 767 at 40,000 feet with a pilot that has problems with situational awareness?

March 6, 2006, 04:27 PM	#41
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Well, I guess if I have a conflict with the idea that rules = commandments, it's along the line that circumstances trump rules. Sure, it's easy to agree with the rule that you should always be aware of what's behind your target. I fully agree. But how about the group-hunt responsibility that Whittington should have made his location known? And, of course, Cheney should have been checking around to make sure of the location of the rest of the group, including Whittington. And all that brings us to circumstance. Whittington didn't sing out as he approached. Cheney thought he was still back by the vehicle. Cheney gets focussed on the bird, and we all should know what happens to peripheral vision. Last, Cheney swings into the direction of a 4PM sun. Circumstances cam:e together such that Cheney could not see Whittington in time to realize the mistake. Okay. All that said: The Newsweek article said the quail flushed from behind Cheney. I guess it's at least halfway obvious that if you're with any sort of group, it's pretty difficult to do an about-face without covering somebody as you turn. IOW, don't go for that particular bird. Nobody broke any rules on purpose. I just try to figure out how stuff happens so I can avoid having such a problem in my own future. , Art

March 6, 2006, 05:34 PM	#42
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Re: Art Eatman The VP admitted that the Sun had been a factor. His vision was blurred by it. At that point, his following of the bird should have halted. It would be like shooting at a deer on ridge without knowing what is behind it. Unless you are saying there is an exception to safety rules when small, fast birds are involved. You can use the blurred vision, adrenalin pumping excuse for most hunting accidents. The guy that shoots the steer can say that he was so excited that the horns looked like antlers. You could call that a situational circumstance too. With all due respect, I would never hunt with someone with your attitude about hunting safety and accidents. This statement will probably get me flamed and or expelled from this forum. But I have strong feelings about this.