Another Powder Question

Tony C · December 8, 2008, 12:24 AM

This could actually be my last question before I am ready to start reloading my first rounds. I am reloading .45 Auto (ACP). I am using two different manuals for reference, Hornady 7th and Speer #14. Having said that I understand that they are referring to their own bullets with the published powder data, but I would think that with similar bullet weight and type, using identical powders, levels should be pretty similar and yet they are not.

Example:

Powder = AA No. 5
Speer
Starting: 7.2 grains = 691 fps.
Max Load: 8.0 grains = 793 fps.

Hornady
Starting: 8.7 grains = 850 fps.
Max Load: 10.4 grains = 1050 fps.

Powder = Bullseye
Speer
Starting: 4.5 grains = 770 fps.
Max Load: 4.9 grains = 795 fps.

Hornady
Starting: 5.3 grains = 850 fps.
Max Load: 7.0 grains = 1050 fps.

These are both 185 Jacketed SWC rounds, though the primers are different. Why is the starting load, in both cases, more in the Hornady data than the maximum load is in the Speer data? I have purchased (if they are the right rounds, previous post) Berry's Plated 185 SWC bullets and am at a loss as to which data group to use. Please give me some direction...

Thank you in advance,
Tony C.
Oregon

"As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will take His stand on the earth. Even after my skin is destroyed, yet from my flesh I shall see God." Job 19:25 NASU

DWARREN123 · December 8, 2008, 08:04 AM

Depends on if they tested using an actual firearm or a test reciever. Just like fps will be different depending on barrel length used.
I always like to go with the lower rating and work up from there.
I will take the lower rated manual and start at about the midway point and work my loads up until I find what I like.

Tony C · December 9, 2008, 07:01 AM

Okay, I can work with this but I am not sure how to "work up". Without a chronograph to measure velocity how do I measure the appropriateness of working a load up?

Thanks

DWARREN123 · December 9, 2008, 08:09 AM

Well a crony will only tell you fps and the most important thing, in my opinion, is chamber pressure.
I do not know about AA powder but Hodgdon puts the chamber pressure on their web reloading site, also the fps they measured.
The thing about max pressure loads is that you may go over and not know it due to differences in components. If you go over then bad things may happen to your firearm and parts of your body.
You have to inspect each loading for signs of high pressure and even so you might not see them til too late.

To work up a load for pistols I go up .2 grains until I get a load I like, most accurate rounds are not the fastest/higher pressure loads.
I will load 10 rounds at one powder level and then add .2 grains and load 10 more up and do this til I am close to max. I have never loaded to max in a round since I do not have test euipment for speed (crony) or presssure.

Reloading manuals are guidelines at best, very good guidelines but all differences can not be taken into account unless you use all the items they used to include the reciever they used.

Whenever changing any component the suggestion is to drop down 5% on charge and work back up and do the same for different lots numbers of the same powder.

Plated bullets are usually loaded to lead bullets data, I myself load them to mid range jacketed and have had no problems but that is me and my firearms.

Do take care in reloading especially until you get a lot of experience and always ask questions.
Good luck and good shooting.

Sam06 · December 9, 2008, 12:42 PM

Tony,

DWarren gave you some good advice. When in doubt average them. With out a chrony you will have to check for signs of pressure. For AA#5 I would stay between 7.5 and 10.2gr. work your way up in .2gr charges and see what signs are there(Pressure, accuracy) Pick the one the gun shoots well. I like AA#5 and have good luck with a 200gr LSW under 8.0gr of #5. I don't shoot the 185's all that much because I cannot reach the power factor I need to. For Blue Dot I used to use 10grs over a 200g LSWC but I have not used blue dot in about 20 years so I am sure that info is off with todays more modern Blue dot.

For Bullseye try 5grs. I think that will match the old bulleye shooting load. You might want to PM kraigwy, I think he posted some loads they used for bulleye shooting to replicate a match loading.

WESHOOT2 · December 10, 2008, 07:03 AM

"Different"; the bullets, the primers, the powders, the cases, the tooling, the testing; all are literally different.

Manuals are guides; they do not offer absolutes.

Speer bullets are often plated rather than jacketed.
Hornady bullets are jacketed.
Their materials differ.

When you have conflicting data always start at the lowest charge weight.

Start any load with a goal; what, specifically, do you want the load to accomplish?

Since you've bought those light Berry's, can we assume you want a 'target' load?
If so, load first for safe reliable functioning from your chosen launch platform, then load for consistent accuracy.

December 8, 2008, 08:04 AM	#2
DWARREN123 Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2006 Location: BETWEEN TN & KY Posts: 1,758	Depends on if they tested using an actual firearm or a test reciever. Just like fps will be different depending on barrel length used. I always like to go with the lower rating and work up from there. I will take the lower rated manual and start at about the midway point and work my loads up until I find what I like. __________________ Have a nice day!

December 9, 2008, 07:01 AM	#3
Tony C Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 293	Work Up? Okay, I can work with this but I am not sure how to "work up". Without a chronograph to measure velocity how do I measure the appropriateness of working a load up? Thanks

December 9, 2008, 08:09 AM	#4
DWARREN123 Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2006 Location: BETWEEN TN & KY Posts: 1,758	Well a crony will only tell you fps and the most important thing, in my opinion, is chamber pressure. I do not know about AA powder but Hodgdon puts the chamber pressure on their web reloading site, also the fps they measured. The thing about max pressure loads is that you may go over and not know it due to differences in components. If you go over then bad things may happen to your firearm and parts of your body. You have to inspect each loading for signs of high pressure and even so you might not see them til too late. To work up a load for pistols I go up .2 grains until I get a load I like, most accurate rounds are not the fastest/higher pressure loads. I will load 10 rounds at one powder level and then add .2 grains and load 10 more up and do this til I am close to max. I have never loaded to max in a round since I do not have test euipment for speed (crony) or presssure. Reloading manuals are guidelines at best, very good guidelines but all differences can not be taken into account unless you use all the items they used to include the reciever they used. Whenever changing any component the suggestion is to drop down 5% on charge and work back up and do the same for different lots numbers of the same powder. Plated bullets are usually loaded to lead bullets data, I myself load them to mid range jacketed and have had no problems but that is me and my firearms. Do take care in reloading especially until you get a lot of experience and always ask questions. Good luck and good shooting. __________________ Have a nice day!

December 10, 2008, 07:03 AM	#6
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	starting with flawed assumption "Different"; the bullets, the primers, the powders, the cases, the tooling, the testing; all are literally different. Manuals are guides; they do not offer absolutes. Speer bullets are often plated rather than jacketed. Hornady bullets are jacketed. Their materials differ. When you have conflicting data always start at the lowest charge weight. Start any load with a goal; what, specifically, do you want the load to accomplish? Since you've bought those light Berry's, can we assume you want a 'target' load? If so, load first for safe reliable functioning from your chosen launch platform, then load for consistent accuracy. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

December 8, 2008, 12:24 AM	#1
Tony C Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 293	Another Powder Question This could actually be my last question before I am ready to start reloading my first rounds. I am reloading .45 Auto (ACP). I am using two different manuals for reference, Hornady 7th and Speer #14. Having said that I understand that they are referring to their own bullets with the published powder data, but I would think that with similar bullet weight and type, using identical powders, levels should be pretty similar and yet they are not. Example: Powder = AA No. 5 *Speer* Starting: 7.2 grains = 691 fps. Max Load: 8.0 grains = 793 fps. *Hornady* Starting: 8.7 grains = 850 fps. Max Load: 10.4 grains = 1050 fps. Powder = Bullseye *Speer* Starting: 4.5 grains = 770 fps. Max Load: 4.9 grains = 795 fps. *Hornady* Starting: 5.3 grains = 850 fps. Max Load: 7.0 grains = 1050 fps. These are both 185 Jacketed SWC rounds, though the primers are different. Why is the starting load, in both cases, more in the Hornady data than the maximum load is in the Speer data? I have purchased (if they are the right rounds, previous post) Berry's Plated 185 SWC bullets and am at a loss as to which data group to use. Please give me some direction... Thank you in advance, Tony C. Oregon "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will take His stand on the earth. Even after my skin is destroyed, yet from my flesh I shall see God." Job 19:25 NASU

December 9, 2008, 12:42 PM	#5
Sam06 Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: Fayettenam Posts: 1,086	Tony, DWarren gave you some good advice. When in doubt average them. With out a chrony you will have to check for signs of pressure. For AA#5 I would stay between 7.5 and 10.2gr. work your way up in .2gr charges and see what signs are there(Pressure, accuracy) Pick the one the gun shoots well. I like AA#5 and have good luck with a 200gr LSW under 8.0gr of #5. I don't shoot the 185's all that much because I cannot reach the power factor I need to. For Blue Dot I used to use 10grs over a 200g LSWC but I have not used blue dot in about 20 years so I am sure that info is off with todays more modern Blue dot. For Bullseye try 5grs. I think that will match the old bulleye shooting load. You might want to PM kraigwy, I think he posted some loads they used for bulleye shooting to replicate a match loading. __________________ The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.