45-70 50,000psi load data??

Nathan · February 15, 2015, 10:41 AM

Looks like 45-70 can be safely and reasonably loaded to 30ksi, 40ksi and 50ksi, depending on the rifle/pistol involved. Sounds like a persons shoulder may have input too!

Hodgdon has all three levels at data.hodgdon.com

Rumor has it that the Hornady manual shows they same. Is there load data for a 300gr traditional jacketed FP or HP bullet at 50ksi using Reloader 7? I have reloader 7 and 40ksi data, but would like to try 50ksi loads. I'm looking to buy this book, if it has this data.

BTW, the rifle is a Ruger #1 in 45-70.

mehavey · February 15, 2015, 10:53 AM

Hodgdon#8 does have them, although they suggest their 1895 Marlin loads for the lighter-built 300grain 4500HP bullets.

Nathan · February 15, 2015, 12:11 PM

^^^Does it list RE7 powder?

WIL TERRY · February 15, 2015, 12:21 PM

The brand new 2015 HODGDON manual does not list RE7.

T. O'Heir · February 15, 2015, 03:36 PM

KSI is not what you're seeing on Hodgdon's site. You're seeing CUP units. Copper Units of Pressure. There is NO mathematical conversion between PSI, KSI or CUP. KSI is not used at all in reloading anyway.
Alliant's site has Reloder(RL not RE) 7 .45-70 300 grain jacketed data for lever actions and Trap Doors. Max loads only, so reduce by 10%. No pressure data at all. Contact Alliant for Ruger No. 1 data. You can load very close to .458 Win velocities for one of those. It'll hurt to shoot though.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/questions/default.aspx
50,000 CUP or PSI(No conversion formula) would be for modern rifles like the Ruger No. 1. Levers max out at about 40,000 CUP. Trap Doors at about 28,000 CUP.

Nathan · February 15, 2015, 04:28 PM

KSI

Quote:

Originally Posted by Google

ksi[edit] The kilopound per square inch is a scaled unit derived from psi, equivalent to a thousand psi. ksi are not widely used for gas pressures. They are mostly used in materials science, where the tensile strength of a material is measured as a large number of psi.

I apologize for using ksi here as Google believes it should not be used for gas pressures! So, for this post, ksi means 1000's of psi as measured with a pressure transducer.

CUP
Yes, this is a PSI measurement.

No, they do not directly correlate because you are measuring the deformation of a material(non-linear) to get a pressure measurement. . . .guess what. . .they're close!

I think I will asl Alliant, but since it is not published, I don't expect much.

Clark · February 15, 2015, 06:24 PM

I am no expert, but I thought that 45/70 was the ONLY cartridge where psi =cup.

When I started handloading ~1999 I got the rockchucker kit that came with the load book "Speer 12" 1994. In that book are (3) levels of 45/70:
1) a) Speer listed load for trapdoor 22,000 cup
1) b) Factory 45/70 ammo for trapdoor 28,000 cup
2) Modern lever and good condition old Winchester 28,000 cup
3) Ruger #1, Browning 1885, and 98 Mauser 35,000 cup.

I also have a book, "Handloading" by Davis 1981, but is probably a compilation of "American Rifleman" articles that could have been written long before then. It has the same (3) categories on page 222, but different pressures:
1) 18,000 cup
2) 28,000 cup
3) 44,000 cup

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Working up in a 45/70 handi rifle with 405 gr cast and Unique, I stopped at the point that Quickload thinks is 87,841 psi, 1911 fps, because the case head expansion .0025", case head separating where case head is flowing into the extractor, action popped open, some leading in the muzzle, and case ejected on firing, primer is spreading out .010".

I have paid for, but have not received yet, an 1886 Winchester antique 45/70.
I will believe it when I see it, but if it arrives, I am going to baby that old rifle along.

mehavey · February 15, 2015, 07:58 PM

Hornaday* #8 lists RL-7 for both the `95 Marlin and #1 Ruger,
and both at 50 & 58 ksi levels respectively (QL relative pressures)**

* Hornady specifically states it's loads are 40,000 & 50,000 CUP, repectively.

** QL calculates the 45-70 case to be ~20% over actual pressure. (Direct load comparison)
That 58ksi figure is then actually ~50ksi

steveno · February 16, 2015, 02:57 AM

I know one thing in that of you decide to load a Ruger #1 that hot you won't have to load very many of them. you probably won't hurt the rifle but you are NOT going to like the recoil involved. it will be ugly. I tried some of Elmer's memorial loads in my Ruger #1 and the recoil was terrible. I don't think his loads were even close to 50,000 psi

Gunfixr · February 16, 2015, 09:55 AM

I have a Hornady manual like that, has 3 sections of loads. A section for trapdoors, a section for the marlins, and a section for the ruger number 1 and custom siamese Mauser builds.
That last section rocks.
I had a marlin guide gun, and used to load the 300gr jhp with 54gr of 3031. Right at 1800fps. You didn't want to shoot a lot of those at one time.

**44 AMP** · February 16, 2015, 01:10 PM

The 3rd edtion Hornady book (1980) lists a max of 55.5gr RL-7 with their 350gr RN bullet for 2100fps from a 22" Ruger No.1. This is a RUGER ONLY load (or other modern single shot or bolt action of suitable strength).

They do not list the pressure for this load, BUT they do say their data has maximum charges that develop 50,000 c.u.p., as tested in the Hornady lab.

A couple of other powders listed by them beat RL-7 at max levels by 100fps.

Quote:

I know one thing in that of you decide to load a Ruger #1 that hot you won't have to load very many of them. you probably won't hurt the rifle but you are NOT going to like the recoil involved. it will be ugly.

I can understand, and agree with this completely! And if you think its bad in a No.1, shoot a No.3!!!!

About 32 years ago, I bought a No.3 in .45-70, used. Love it. It came with a 50rnd box of handloads the previous owner had developed for it. Big warning written on the box, NOT FOR BLACK POWDER GUNS!

I won't list the load, it's insane by current standards. But it does push the Hornaday 350gr RN at a clocked 2200fps from the little No.3. OUCH!!!! I will NEVER fire one of these loads from the prone position!!!! 6' 250lb+ (ok, 10%+

) and it rocks me back quite a bit. Sometimes needing that little step to keep balance.

I got 50 of these back then, I still have 18 left!

Magnum Wheel Man · February 16, 2015, 03:37 PM

I was reading an article in a magazine... handloader or ??? where the author took a Marlin Guide Gun to Africa, & ended up killing 2 water buffalo with one shot, bullet going through both shoulders of the bull, & killing a cow standing behind... I bought the gas checked cast bullets & tried some of the loads listed... rattled the stock sights right off the rifle... they do put a smile on my face, & I've since put better sights on the rifle

steveno · February 16, 2015, 03:37 PM

a Ruger #3 in 45-70 hurts just thinking about it.

Nathan · February 16, 2015, 04:19 PM

You guys are great! I think I'll start light and work up!

steveno · February 16, 2015, 06:00 PM

I would suggest the you get a book by Paul Matthews on loading "40 Years with the 45-70".

chiefr · February 16, 2015, 07:06 PM

If I want 458 Magnum performance, I will buy a 458 Magnum.

Clark · February 17, 2015, 12:01 AM

I don't remember the source from ~15 years ago, but I have read that blowing up a trapdoor threshold typically takes 55,000 psi.

One would have reduce from there for a proof load.
And reduce from the proof load to find the useful load.

**44 AMP** · February 17, 2015, 12:31 AM

I love my No.3 in .45-70! True, I don't shoot the really hot stuff often, but its nice to know you can.

And 10gr Unique under a 400gr cast slug is fun, accurate and very light recoil. Same slug with 38.5gr IMR 3031 duplicates the old Black powder load level and will drop any deer you ever meet just fine if you do your part. And the recoil isn't really all that bad. Less than a 12ga slug.

GeauxTide · February 17, 2015, 02:39 PM

That was Brian Pearce, with an 1895 Marlin in 45-70. He was using 405gr CorBon Solids at 1900fps. At 100 yards, he shot a bull through both shoulders and through both shoulders of a small cow that was invisible behind the bull. He also shot the bull going away in the rump and it went all the way to the brisket. For my 1895, the 405 cast at 1500 are plenty stout for me.

Nathan · February 17, 2015, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Nathan,
There is no tested load data from either Alliant or Hornady for these bullets for the Ruger #1 rifle.
The closest is for the lever action firearms at 40,000 PSI.
Thanks,
Shoot Straight
DuaneVB
CCI/SPEER/ALLIANT POWDER

Hmmm ....there you go.....,

**44 AMP** · February 18, 2015, 12:42 AM

I have shot 385gr RN cast (copper washed) out of the modern Marlin at 1800fps. It IS an experience. Had an old Weaver 2.5x Post scope on it. Nice rig. More punch than I needed, but a nice rig.

When I a friend went to shoot it, I was too slow about warning him NOT to crawl on the stock. Amazing how much an eyebrow bleeds!!!

Nathan · February 23, 2015, 10:41 PM

Well, I bought the Hornady #9. It has some loads they list as 50,000 CUP. They only have them for the 350 and 500gr bullets. . . .not much help. I also have the Lyman 49th. It had some pretty hot loads and lots of bullets.

The thing I've realize comparing all these loads is that the 45-70 loads from 30-30 levels to darn near 458 Win Mag levels with RE7. So, rest assured, I will find a point where my shoulder wants no more with 300 gr bullets and that looks like about it. The rest will be in the scope and the hunter!

mete · February 24, 2015, 06:51 AM

The 45-70 kills by punching a big hole , NOT by velocity !
The standard 300 bullets are too fragile within 100 yds. I use the Barnes or SwiftA-frame factory loads They're much better !
My Browning 1885 will take the 50,00 psi but it will never see them .Not unless they bring back the mammoth to NY state !

February 15, 2015, 03:36 PM	#5
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	KSI is not what you're seeing on Hodgdon's site. You're seeing CUP units. Copper Units of Pressure. There is NO mathematical conversion between PSI, KSI or CUP. KSI is not used at all in reloading anyway. Alliant's site has Reloder(RL not RE) 7 .45-70 300 grain jacketed data for lever actions and Trap Doors. Max loads only, so reduce by 10%. No pressure data at all. Contact Alliant for Ruger No. 1 data. You can load very close to .458 Win velocities for one of those. It'll hurt to shoot though. http://www.alliantpowder.com/questions/default.aspx 50,000 CUP or PSI(No conversion formula) would be for modern rifles like the Ruger No. 1. Levers max out at about 40,000 CUP. Trap Doors at about 28,000 CUP. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

February 15, 2015, 06:24 PM	#7
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I am no expert, but I thought that 45/70 was the ONLY cartridge where psi =cup. When I started handloading ~1999 I got the rockchucker kit that came with the load book "Speer 12" 1994. In that book are (3) levels of 45/70: 1) a) Speer listed load for trapdoor 22,000 cup 1) b) Factory 45/70 ammo for trapdoor 28,000 cup 2) Modern lever and good condition old Winchester 28,000 cup 3) Ruger #1, Browning 1885, and 98 Mauser 35,000 cup. I also have a book, "Handloading" by Davis 1981, but is probably a compilation of "American Rifleman" articles that could have been written long before then. It has the same (3) categories on page 222, but different pressures: 1) 18,000 cup 2) 28,000 cup 3) 44,000 cup CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. Working up in a 45/70 handi rifle with 405 gr cast and Unique, I stopped at the point that Quickload thinks is 87,841 psi, 1911 fps, because the case head expansion .0025", case head separating where case head is flowing into the extractor, action popped open, some leading in the muzzle, and case ejected on firing, primer is spreading out .010". I have paid for, but have not received yet, an 1886 Winchester antique 45/70. I will believe it when I see it, but if it arrives, I am going to baby that old rifle along. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

February 16, 2015, 03:37 PM	#12
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	I was reading an article in a magazine... handloader or ??? where the author took a Marlin Guide Gun to Africa, & ended up killing 2 water buffalo with one shot, bullet going through both shoulders of the bull, & killing a cow standing behind... I bought the gas checked cast bullets & tried some of the loads listed... rattled the stock sights right off the rifle... they do put a smile on my face, & I've since put better sights on the rifle __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

February 17, 2015, 12:01 AM	#17
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I don't remember the source from ~15 years ago, but I have read that blowing up a trapdoor threshold typically takes 55,000 psi. One would have reduce from there for a proof load. And reduce from the proof load to find the useful load. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

February 17, 2015, 12:31 AM	#18
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,921	I love my No.3 in .45-70! True, I don't shoot the really hot stuff often, but its nice to know you can. And 10gr Unique under a 400gr cast slug is fun, accurate and very light recoil. Same slug with 38.5gr IMR 3031 duplicates the old Black powder load level and will drop any deer you ever meet just fine if you do your part. And the recoil isn't really all that bad. Less than a 12ga slug. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 15, 2015, 10:41 AM	#1
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,349	45-70 50,000psi load data?? Looks like 45-70 can be safely and reasonably loaded to 30ksi, 40ksi and 50ksi, depending on the rifle/pistol involved. Sounds like a persons shoulder may have input too! Hodgdon has all three levels at data.hodgdon.com Rumor has it that the Hornady manual shows they same. Is there load data for a 300gr traditional jacketed FP or HP bullet at 50ksi using Reloader 7? I have reloader 7 and 40ksi data, but would like to try 50ksi loads. I'm looking to buy this book, if it has this data. BTW, the rifle is a Ruger #1 in 45-70.

February 15, 2015, 10:53 AM	#2
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,918	Hodgdon#8 does have them, although they suggest their 1895 Marlin loads for the lighter-built 300grain 4500HP bullets.

February 15, 2015, 12:11 PM	#3
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,349	^^^Does it list RE7 powder?

February 15, 2015, 12:21 PM	#4
WIL TERRY Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2000 Location: BLACK HILLS Posts: 1,322	The brand new 2015 HODGDON manual does not list RE7.

February 15, 2015, 07:58 PM	#8
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,918	Hornaday* #8 lists RL-7 for both the `95 Marlin and #1 Ruger, and both at 50 & 58 ksi levels respectively (QL relative pressures)** * Hornady specifically states it's loads are 40,000 & 50,000 CUP, repectively. ** QL calculates the 45-70 case to be ~20% over actual pressure. (Direct load comparison) That 58ksi figure is then actually ~50ksi Last edited by mehavey; February 15, 2015 at 10:12 PM.

February 16, 2015, 02:57 AM	#9
steveno Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Minden , Nebraska Posts: 1,407	I know one thing in that of you decide to load a Ruger #1 that hot you won't have to load very many of them. you probably won't hurt the rifle but you are NOT going to like the recoil involved. it will be ugly. I tried some of Elmer's memorial loads in my Ruger #1 and the recoil was terrible. I don't think his loads were even close to 50,000 psi

February 16, 2015, 09:55 AM	#10
Gunfixr Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2007 Location: East Coast, USA Posts: 360	I have a Hornady manual like that, has 3 sections of loads. A section for trapdoors, a section for the marlins, and a section for the ruger number 1 and custom siamese Mauser builds. That last section rocks. I had a marlin guide gun, and used to load the 300gr jhp with 54gr of 3031. Right at 1800fps. You didn't want to shoot a lot of those at one time.

February 16, 2015, 04:19 PM	#14
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,349	You guys are great! I think I'll start light and work up!

February 16, 2015, 06:00 PM	#15
steveno Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Minden , Nebraska Posts: 1,407	I would suggest the you get a book by Paul Matthews on loading "40 Years with the 45-70".

February 16, 2015, 07:06 PM	#16
chiefr Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: AR Posts: 1,401	If I want 458 Magnum performance, I will buy a 458 Magnum.

February 17, 2015, 02:39 PM	#19
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,427	Magnum Wheel Man That was Brian Pearce, with an 1895 Marlin in 45-70. He was using 405gr CorBon Solids at 1900fps. At 100 yards, he shot a bull through both shoulders and through both shoulders of a small cow that was invisible behind the bull. He also shot the bull going away in the rump and it went all the way to the brisket. For my 1895, the 405 cast at 1500 are plenty stout for me.

February 18, 2015, 12:42 AM	#21
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,921	I have shot 385gr RN cast (copper washed) out of the modern Marlin at 1800fps. It IS an experience. Had an old Weaver 2.5x Post scope on it. Nice rig. More punch than I needed, but a nice rig. When I a friend went to shoot it, I was too slow about warning him NOT to crawl on the stock. Amazing how much an eyebrow bleeds!!! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 23, 2015, 10:41 PM	#22
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,349	Well, I bought the Hornady #9. It has some loads they list as 50,000 CUP. They only have them for the 350 and 500gr bullets. . . .not much help. I also have the Lyman 49th. It had some pretty hot loads and lots of bullets. The thing I've realize comparing all these loads is that the 45-70 loads from 30-30 levels to darn near 458 Win Mag levels with RE7. So, rest assured, I will find a point where my shoulder wants no more with 300 gr bullets and that looks like about it. The rest will be in the scope and the hunter!

February 24, 2015, 06:51 AM	#23
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	The 45-70 kills by punching a big hole , NOT by velocity ! The standard 300 bullets are too fragile within 100 yds. I use the Barnes or SwiftA-frame factory loads They're much better ! My Browning 1885 will take the 50,00 psi but it will never see them .Not unless they bring back the mammoth to NY state ! __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !