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Old August 14, 2014, 11:24 PM   #51
gyvel
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my grandmother pivoted, grabbed a nearby iron skillet and brought it down on the back of his head, laying him out. Then, being a nurse, she nursed him back to health
LOL!!!!!!!! That was one tough grannie!

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Today, there's probably a hawk flying around somewhere that's a direct descendant of the hawk she didn't get that day.
That might be the one that sits in the dead pine tree in my back yard at night. Sometimes, its mate sits there next to it. We had a bad thunderstorm front move through the other night and the poor hawk was just sitting there in the rain. I kinda felt sorry for it, but I guess they're used to it.
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Old August 14, 2014, 11:44 PM   #52
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Barring a head or heart shot(s) or CNS shot(s), I don't think even multiple shots from a .22 will be that effective. Of course, if that's all you have, it's better than nothing.

As usual, it's shot placement that counts. One shot between the eyes with a .22 will do the trick better than 10 random shots at various other body points. ... A .32 is also a relatively low recoil, low flash round and is probably just as easy for a shooter to place multiple shots with it as with a .22.
I've thought about that, and if I have a Ruger 11-shot (or even 10-shot), I can fill the air with a lot of lead headed for his chest or noggin. Like I said, my dad grew up in the country and said neighbors never had to worry about him or his friends with .22lr rifles. He said that with the nature of medicine back in those days, they pretty much considered a hit with a .22 to the chest or head to be a death sentence. The doctors back then and there didn't have x-rays like they do now, and even 12-year old kids knew that .22 hits were bad news. If someone wasn't kilt, a doctor would many times have to spend hours looking for the bullet to ensure it hadn't lodged in a vital organ. During the procedure the doctor would often take numerous urine samples looking for blood, so the price for foolishness was very high, especially with the risk of infection.

The fellow I knew who was hit with a .22 bullet from a pistol a mile away said he thought a wasp had gotten him, and as he descended the ladder, his hands became numb and he got dizzy. He came to, was able to crawl to a phone for help, then passed out again. He came very close to dying and I don't think a .32acp could have done that to a person a mile off.

But it's what people are comfortable with. I knew another guy who shot a guy right full in the chest with his 1911 during the war. It was just a few days after MacArthur had come ashore in the Philippines. He assumed the beach was secure when this skinny little guy with a machete comes running out into the water straight for him. He shoots the guy once in the chest and the guy kept coming. Then he uses the gun to beat the guy down while he's struggling with his machete arm. Even then the guy lived, he told me. For the rest of his life he had zero trust in the .45, despite its great success and subsequent advances. I have great faith in mine, but he belittled the .45acp round until he died. To him, if someone needed stopping, the .357 was the way to go.

So based on what I think I know and all the newspaper stories I've read, I think half the battle is what one has faith in. Some folks only carry .44 mag in bear country, but I'm comfortable with my Ruger Security-Six. Maybe if I ever saw a bear, I might feel different. But everyone has their comfort levels.
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Old August 14, 2014, 11:50 PM   #53
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That might be the one that sits in the dead pine tree in my back yard at night. Sometimes, its mate sits there next to it. We had a bad thunderstorm front move through the other night and the poor hawk was just sitting there in the rain. I kinda felt sorry for it, but I guess they're used to it.
Yep. I can't get my cat out of the rain. Comes in soaking wet, gets dried off, eats and goes right out for more. I open the door for him at times and he just looks at me. He likes snow, too, but tends to get cold. In the winter, he spends hours on my lap. In the summer I rarely see him. He does go with me on walks, though. My wife loves him.
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Old August 14, 2014, 11:58 PM   #54
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But it's what people are comfortable with. I knew another guy who shot a guy right full in the chest with his 1911 during the war. It was just a few days after MacArthur had come ashore in the Philippines. He assumed the beach was secure when this skinny little guy with a machete comes running out into the water straight for him.
Good Lord! Was the guy a Filipino or a Jap? I've been over there a bunch of times and Filipinos tend to like Americans (except the muslims) and they have streets named after MacArthur and statues of him everywhere. I can say that the general consensus of the average Filipino (especially the older generations) is that they DON'T like the Japs.

As an aside, I have one worthless cat* (although he does a bang up job of rodent control) that WON'T go out in the rain. LOL!! Sometimes I worry that the hawk will get him when he does go out at night, but I think he's too big for the hawk. Coyotes, bobcats and mountain lions are more of a worry. I've lost numerous cats to the coyotes.

*He's not really worthless; I just call him that.
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Old August 15, 2014, 01:55 AM   #55
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.22 isn't an awesomely lethal caliber. Neither is .32. If the .22 delivery system is superior to the .32 delivery system, maybe .22 is a better overall choice.

If reliability was not an issue, everything an auto needs to do could be accomplished with .22, 9mm and 10mm (or .45 Super). The little subdivisions are comforting, but small, medium and large are also a fine way to look at the caliber problem.
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Old August 15, 2014, 02:29 AM   #56
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.22 isn't an awesomely lethal caliber. Neither is .32. If the .22 delivery system is superior to the .32 delivery system, maybe .22 is a better overall choice.
I think the delivery systems are basically the same and of equal reliability.

What it really boils down to is how proficient and comfortable one is with one's weapon.

Normally I carry a .380 in ccw, but I (personally, me, myself) am also comfortable with the same gun in .32 auto. (Browning 1910.)

YMMV
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Old August 15, 2014, 02:37 AM   #57
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I don't think there is a .32 equivalent of the Ruger MkII in terms of ease of operation or accuracy.
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Old August 15, 2014, 04:30 AM   #58
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I don't think there is a .32 equivalent of the Ruger MkII in terms of ease of operation or accuracy.
Again, it depends on the individual; I don't consider my Browning 1910s to be any more difficult to operate than a Ruger Standard. Same applies to Beretta .32/.380s, CZ83 .32s are certainly easy to operate, etc. It's all "what you're used to."

Regarding accuracy, I'm thinking it's only a matter of 10-12' we're talking about in a SD incident, so accuracy really isn't a big factor here.

I will agree, though that given the difference in operating platforms, a Ruger would be light years ahead of a .25.

Again: YMMV
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Old August 15, 2014, 04:40 AM   #59
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Although I agree in spirit, there are many inexperienced people who are alive because they had a gun.
Very true, and a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile too, and I win more than $10 in the state lottery.

While the first rule of a gun fight is "get a gun", if you want to increase the odds of passing the test, best to at least to get the Cliff Notes and learn how to use it.

I think the just having a gun mentality, especially without basic skills, is just a feel good thing, and false hope.

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My grandmother had an old Colt .38 she kept in a drawer, and she grew up in the country around guns.
It doesnt sound like Granny was a "novice".

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I've thought about that, and if I have a Ruger 11-shot (or even 10-shot), I can fill the air with a lot of lead headed for his chest or noggin.
I dont think anyone can argue that a .22 (or any of the other "small" caliber guns) isnt lethal. The problem is, is it lethal enough, quick enough, especially if you dont make a CNS shot?

The point isnt to "fill the air", its to fill the bad guy, and in the right places.

If it has to be a .22. Id go with the revolver over the autos. Ive owned many if not most of the different make .22 autos over the years, and pretty much all of them get grumpy when dirty, and reliability becomes an issue. If youre not going to maintain them, its will only get worse.

Then you have the issue of misfires, which is also a pretty common thing, and nature of the best with the rimfires. That 11 shot might be done at the first, and if you dont know how get it going again, then what?



Hey, use what ever you want and get as much or little training as you want, youre the one who has to deal when it comes down to it. A guns advantage is distance, and that advantage diminishes quickly as the distance closes, especially if your not prepared to fight close in. Sure, your hit probability "might" go up, but if youve let them get that close and havent yet started shooting, theres a good chance, the result will be a draw.
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Old August 15, 2014, 01:49 PM   #60
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The point isnt to "fill the air", its to fill the bad guy, and in the right places.
Well, every time I go to a range, I've had to fill the air with lead to make little holes in the target. No other way to do it. I can empty a Ruger Mark II into a target's vitals, including the head, in about five seconds. If someone can walk through that hail of bullets, maybe my time is just up.

The Israelis use .22lr to dispatch bad guys because they can put the bullets right where they need to. In the ATF Museum in Washington, they have an actual assassins weapon on display. It's an old Ruger auto with a silencer and carrying case. And I recently read an account of a woman in Israel who killed a terrorist with a Ruger Single-Six. And though anyone can cherry pick incidents, I've just never see articles about people who are killed while defending themselves with .22s and .25s. I also recently heard of a guy who successfully defended himself from a knife-wielding bad guy with a .22 short.
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Old August 15, 2014, 04:49 PM   #61
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The primary advantage of a .22 auto is that even a new shooter can fire it rapidly, on target. A .38 revolver, even if the DA trigger doesn't cause the first shot to go wide, can fall prey to recoil compensation where the novice puts the next five shots in the floor.

For home use by novices a condition 3 target .22 solves a few problems.
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Old August 15, 2014, 07:41 PM   #62
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The Israelis use .22lr to dispatch bad guys because they can put the bullets right where they need to.
They are also trained to do so.

As I said earlier, I dont doubt their being lethal, its just that you need skill (or a lot of luck) to hit those small targets that will bring about a quick solution.
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Old August 15, 2014, 08:27 PM   #63
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For a revolver I would recommend any model S&W .38 or .357 revolver you could find in good condition in that price range. Not going to be a lot for sale at $300.00. For a S/A a third generation S&W 9MM would be a good choice. I have found them to be very reliable guns.
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