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Old August 5, 2014, 10:33 AM   #51
JD0x0
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I think I solved the 124gr vs 147gr debate. I just use 155gr in my .40...lol.
A 155 grain .40 bullet is roughly the equivalent of a 122 grain .355 cal bullet. So technically that 155 grain is lighter for caliber than a 124 grain 9mm

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Old August 6, 2014, 05:01 PM   #52
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Model12Win,

I hate to write this, but a .357 Mag with mag rounds is not a wise idea for home defense. The muzzle blast alone in a confined space; e.g., your bedroom, will disorient you. Muzzle flash will light up a room and leave you temporarily blinded.

But it might work better for you. Were it me, I'd load a .357 Mag with .38 Special 158 grain LSWCHP +P for home defense.
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Old August 6, 2014, 07:39 PM   #53
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Here is a ballistic test I done for the 9mm Luger and used a CZ 75B Omega as the test pistol.
It may help you decide on the round to use.

http://rangehot.com/9mm-luger-ballistic-test/
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Old August 7, 2014, 03:33 PM   #54
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+1 for SansSouci, but why +P?
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Old August 8, 2014, 08:38 PM   #55
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try to hide? im sorry but when the pile of feces hits the atmoshperic aerator at 2 am, the last thing youll want to do is HIDE your rifle or shotgun or trusty carbine.
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Old August 10, 2014, 04:58 AM   #56
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But you might want to hide your gun until you've determined whether it is a criminal or your house guests in the kitchen at 2am.


I honestly think most of these discussion shows a marked lack of reality in people's planning. Every scenario seems closer to zombie apocalypse talk than an honest discussion of how to make day to day life compatible with firearms.

Normal people don't live in isolated castles with everyone in the family going to their well armed bedrooms at 10pm sharp. They have kids and friends that come and go at odd times, spouses that work the night shift and neighbors that get locked out at 2am. If you think you can react to every funny noise in the yard by either hiding under the bed or running around with a shotgun, you'll find how limited your imagination is when you either don't have the gun or embarrass yourself with it.

If you think a long arm is the best possible primary weapon for home defense, then the same principle probably applies to the street.

Handguns are compromises. But really, all firearms are compromises. They don't make you invincible and all have some pretty severe limitations. You need to be honest with yourself when you pick which set of compromises you're going to live with.
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Old August 10, 2014, 08:17 AM   #57
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Normal people don't live in isolated castles with everyone in the family going to their well armed bedrooms at 10pm sharp.
Well, 10's a little late (but hey, the day starts early this time of year, and 3:30am comes quick), but the rest you described is pretty "normal" around here.

Out here in the hinterlands, things are isolated, pretty much everyone is armed, and you hear shooting all the time, day and night, on "normal" days, so its by no means, an uncommon sound.

Police response can be a half hour or more, unless youre lucky enough to have a Trooper in the area.

If you arent prepared to take care of things by yourself, then youre not being realistic in your planning.

And while I agree about the lack of planning part with some people, from what Ive seen, that tends to go down and become more of an issue, the closer you go towards civilization, where more reliance on, and the expectation of others to take care of you, seems to go up.

Guns are just a part of a pretty broad plan, and generally, towards the bottom of it in the progression of order, if you arent normally wearing one all the time.

Around here, if they make it past the electronics and various "alert" critters, they have to deal with the dogs, (250 or so pounds of very family protective Rottweiller), who live in the house, and go with you everywhere. You dont get close, let alone in, without them knowing (we knew you were here, long before you got close to the house), and if by some chance you did, we will know just where you are, and by the way things are going, who you are.

Next to good, reliable weapons systems, and the practiced familiarity of their use, good dogs are really your best bet. They are a proactive alarm system that responds instantly, giving you time to decide and deal.
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Old August 10, 2014, 01:55 PM   #58
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Why answer a general request for home defense information with suggestions that are directed to less than 20% of the US population?

What you describe is only normal for a tiny portion of US residents, US gun owners and forum members. Most of us live in the city or the 'burbs. And those of you living in the country have the lowest expectation of a home invasion.

This is what I mean about the fantasy world that so many gun forum members seem to occupy. That's great if you have an M-60 to defend the safe room in your mansion and the 10 acre killing field that surrounds it, but the rest of us don't live anything at all like that.


It would be great if realistic questions about defense revolved around realistic scenarios - neighbors, kids, sidewalks, townhomes, apartments, street parking, students doing door-to-door fundraising, no dog residences, etc.
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Old August 10, 2014, 03:18 PM   #59
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Why answer a general request for home defense information with suggestions that are directed to less than 20% of the US population?
How is it really any different for the other 80%? Do you respond to a threat or perceived threat, any differently?

Ive lived in a lot of different places in my lifetime, from very rural to large inner cities, and most other places in between, and really havent changed the base security measures taken. Things are adjusted somewhat for where you are, but they still fit a basic set of parameters. And as I said earlier, weapons are simply one part of the equation.

Quote:
What you describe is only normal for a tiny portion of US residents, US gun owners and forum members. Most of us live in the city or the 'burbs. And those of you living in the country have the lowest expectation of a home invasion.
I see you dont get out of the city/suburbs much.

Believe it or dont, but crime exists everywhere, and occurs all the time, even here in the country. About the only real difference here, is who is likely to have to do the responding.

We are moving up to big boy pants though, as most of us got 911 service a couple of years back, and an actual street address, instead of a RR # and a fire tag. Good I suppose in one respect, bad in that you can now be located on a map at the press of a computer key, by anyone.

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It would be great if realistic questions about defense revolved around realistic scenarios - neighbors, kids, sidewalks, townhomes, apartments, street parking, students doing door-to-door fundraising, no dog residences, etc.
Ahhh, I see. Because we dont fit "your" reality, or scenarios, ours arent realistic, eh? Do I sense a hint of the elitist?

Again, the base parameters are the same, regardless where you are, and are simply augmented or adjusted to fill your needs, where ever you are.

I had dogs and answered the door wearing a gun when I lived in the city and suburbs, just as I do here now. No one was the wiser about the gun, and only one boy needed a lesson on raising his voice to my wife, while trying to open the screen door. The dog took him into the front yard and discussed it with him until he understood. No other lesson was needed. It also had a dramatic effect on the number of people coming to the door after that.
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Old August 10, 2014, 03:56 PM   #60
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I had dogs and answered the door wearing a gun when I lived in the city and suburbs, just as I do here now.
Was the gun you were wearing a rifle or shotgun?

That's what we're arguing about, BTW.
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Old August 10, 2014, 04:44 PM   #61
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In those cases, it was a handgun. If I had felt the situation warranted a long gun, it would likely have been an AR, AK, or MP5.

Nothing is written in stone, and every instance, is its own occasion. You have to decide based on the circumstances. In some (and probably most) instances, a handgun would be the appropriate choice, in others, a long gun. I dont see the big deal in having the option and alternate weapons available, and I do. Im not stuck in one rut.

In case you missed it, pretty much all along here, Ive agreed with you on the handgun being "usually", the best overall choice, especially since it can always be on you, and you dont have to go look for or get it.
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Old August 10, 2014, 04:45 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by SansSouci
I hate to write this, but a .357 Mag with mag rounds is not a wise idea for home defense.
100% agree with this.

I fired a single hot .357 round indoors 3 years ago and it wreaked havoc on my ears. Extreme sensitivity to noise for a month, and intense ringing for a few months which did diminish but I still have permanent ringing in my left year. A year ago on a camping trip my idiot buddy let off a 9mm round in the backseat of the car while I was in the front with all the windows up. All it resulted in was ringing for 24hrs and left me with no ill effects like the .357 did. After the damage from the .357 round my left ear is more sensitive and susceptible to being damaged again from loud noises, yet the 9mm round in such an enclosed space didn't even touch on the amount of damage my ear endured from the .357 round. This is in no way a scientific test, but life experience has showed me that the .357 round is an extremely punishing round to the ears, much more so than say 9mm or .45.

After posting my experience here with the .357 round damaging my ears I had two different members on here contact me desperately seeking help and advice on when the ringing will stop because they did the same thing. Both of those members only fired a single .357 round themselves and were left with intense ringing in their ears which never fully went away for either.
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Old August 10, 2014, 04:59 PM   #63
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In case you missed it, pretty much all along here, Ive agreed with you on the handgun being "usually", the best overall choice, especially since it can always be on you, and you dont have to go look for or get it.
Yet, when I responded to Bezoar, there you are disagreeing with me.

If you agree with me (handguns for primary, long gun if you want), then why do you obscure that agreement by arguing against every response I make to someone else?
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Old August 10, 2014, 05:19 PM   #64
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100% agree with this.

I fired a single hot .357 round indoors 3 years ago and it wreaked havoc on my ears. Extreme sensitivity to noise for a month, and intense ringing for a few months which did diminish but I still have permanent ringing in my left year. A year ago on a camping trip my idiot buddy let off a 9mm round in the backseat of the car while I was in the front with all the windows up. All it resulted in was ringing for 24hrs and left me with no ill effects like the .357 did. After the damage from the .357 round my left ear is more sensitive and susceptible to being damaged again from loud noises, yet the 9mm round in such an enclosed space didn't even touch on the amount of damage my ear endured from the .357 round. This is in no way a scientific test, but life experience has showed me that the .357 round is an extremely punishing round to the ears, much more so than say 9mm or .45.

After posting my experience here with the .357 round damaging my ears I had two different members on here contact me desperately seeking help and advice on when the ringing will stop because they did the same thing. Both of those members only fired a single .357 round themselves and were left with intense ringing in their ears which never fully went away for either.
This might be so but when the proverbial mental image of fecal material strikes the atmospheric aeration device, I want the most powerful handgun I can have if I MUST use a handgun for defense work. That my friend is a .357 magnum loaded with 125 grain JHP loads. Can you say 98% one shot stop rating? Besides this, individuals typically experience what's known as the "audio exclusion phenomenon" when in a life threatening situation. This effectively "mutes" loud sounds. This is often observed when someone says "I didn't even hear the gun go off", and I believe if I ever need to take a shot with my magnum that this will put me in such a situation that this effect is likely to occur. I can understand getting hearing loss from a .357 magnum indoors when not under extreme stress, because it is a total surprise to the brain.
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Old August 10, 2014, 05:29 PM   #65
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One shot stop ratings were discredited 20 years ago.

The most powerful and lethal handgun is rounds are .454, .460, .50. Not .357.

.50 AE too much gun? So is .357 indoors. It isn't hearing loss that's the issue - its not being able to fire effectively more than once.
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Old August 10, 2014, 05:50 PM   #66
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Yet, when I responded to Bezoar, there you are disagreeing with me.
OH MY TODD! There I go......

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Besides this, individuals typically experience what's known as the "audio exclusion phenomenon" when in a life threatening situation. This effectively "mutes" loud sounds. This is often observed when someone says "I didn't even hear the gun go off", and I believe if I ever need to take a shot with my magnum that this will put me in such a situation that this effect is likely to occur. I can understand getting hearing loss from a .357 magnum indoors when not under extreme stress, because it is a total surprise to the brain.
While Ive heard of "audio exclusion phenomenon", I have never seen anything "official" backing it up, and stating that your hearing is protected due to it. Got any links to something that backs it up?

I do know that, ready or not, stress or not, a 357 indoors, will probably finish off what a lifetime of exposure to sharp, loud, and repetitive noise, has done to my hearing while unprotected.


Quote:
So is .357 indoors. It isn't hearing loss that's the issue - its not being able to fire effectively more than once.
Are you saying that you cant shoot the 357mag effectively more than once, or are you referring to the 50AE?
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Old August 10, 2014, 06:16 PM   #67
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Both. Playing down the muzzle blast problems of magnums based on a half baked theory is ridiculous. Especially when the underlying reason is living up to Marshall-Sanow "statistics".
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Old August 10, 2014, 06:20 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Model12Win
This might be so but when the proverbial mental image of fecal material strikes the atmospheric aeration device, I want the most powerful handgun I can have if I MUST use a handgun for defense work. That my friend is a .357 magnum loaded with 125 grain JHP loads. Can you say 98% one shot stop rating?
Ugh, not this again. The .357 magnum is not a magic bullet, the 98% one shot rating by Marshall and Sanow is outdated and baloney. The difference between a 125gr .357 and a 124gr 9mm is about 200fps. If you think 200fps is the difference between saving your butt or not, then go for it, I personally do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Model12Win
Besides this, individuals typically experience what's known as the "audio exclusion phenomenon" when in a life threatening situation. This effectively "mutes" loud sounds. This is often observed when someone says "I didn't even hear the gun go off", and I believe if I ever need to take a shot with my magnum that this will put me in such a situation that this effect is likely to occur. I can understand getting hearing loss from a .357 magnum indoors when not under extreme stress, because it is a total surprise to the brain.
Auditory exclusion does absolutely nothing to protect your ears, it is entirely psychological. Just because your brain did not register or you do not remember hearing the shot, does NOT mean the concussive blast and the pressure waves from the round going off does not do damage to your ears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK103K
While Ive heard of "audio exclusion phenomenon", I have never seen anything "official" backing it up, and stating that your hearing is protected due to it. Got any links to something that backs it up?
Auditory exclusion is a real thing, but as I mentioned before it does absolutely nothing to protect your hearing. This was confirmed to me by one of the top ENT's (Ear, Nose, Throat) specialists in the Boston area.

Last edited by Dragline45; August 10, 2014 at 06:33 PM.
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Old August 10, 2014, 08:04 PM   #69
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But you might want to hide your gun until you've determined whether it is a criminal or your house guests in the kitchen at 2am.
Gee, it's pretty simple to simply shout a verbal challenge: "Who's There?!"
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Old August 10, 2014, 08:19 PM   #70
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Unless you don't want to wake up your kids, give away your position, etc, etc.
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Old August 11, 2014, 12:04 AM   #71
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RX-79G Unless you don't want to wake up your kids, give away your position, etc, etc.
I find it funny that you only feel that "real world situations" are only the ones that you bring up.

So your kids are asleep in bed and you hear a noise but you don't want to take your AR for fear that someone might see it. So you take your pistol so you can hide it in your robe so you don't offend someone in your house at midnight?

At least this is what I've gotten from the summation of your posts.

Not the best idea to be sweeping the house with your gun in a pocket wouldn't you say?
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Old August 11, 2014, 12:18 AM   #72
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I want the most powerful handgun I can have if I MUST use a handgun for defense work. That my friend is a .357 magnum loaded with 125 grain JHP loads. Can you say 98% one shot stop rating?
1. .357 is not even close to the most powerful handgun you can have. If that is truly your criteria, you need to look for a .454 or a .50.

2. If you are still using one stop shot ratings as your end all be all, i'd recommend you do some more research.
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Old August 11, 2014, 12:22 AM   #73
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I find it funny that you only feel that "real world situations" are only the ones that you bring up.
Not at all. You can make a list of scenarios and some will work with long arms, some won't. Inside a home, very few will require a long arm. Nearly every one will work with a handgun.

For instance, muzzle control is easier with a handgun in confined spaces.

Handguns exist despite all the things that they fail to do as well as long guns. Being able to maneuver and conceal them easily is incredibly useful - especially when you aren't in a war zone and have to appear civilized.

You appear to be miffed that I can easily point out the limitations of a large gun in a house in a neighborhood. Generally, when people attach the poster, it isn't because he isn't making sense.
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Old August 11, 2014, 01:03 AM   #74
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1. .357 is not even close to the most powerful handgun you can have. If that is truly your criteria, you need to look for a .454 or a .50.
Never once did I say the .357 magnum was the "most powerful handgun you can have."

Quote:
Ugh, not this again. The .357 magnum is not a magic bullet, the 98% one shot rating by Marshall and Sanow is outdated and baloney. The difference between a 125gr .357 and a 124gr 9mm is about 200fps. If you think 200fps is the difference between saving your butt or not, then go for it, I personally do not.
The Double Tap 125 grain .357 magnum SJHPs I load in my Ruger GP100 w/ 6" bbl produce approximately 1750 FPS at the muzzle for 850 ft-lbs muzzle energy.

Comparing watered down weak .357 "magnum" ammo to 9mm isn't even fair. In truth the .357 magnum is capable of MUCH higher velocities and energy levels to ANY 9mm handgun when using full-power ammo in BOTH guns.
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Old August 11, 2014, 01:28 AM   #75
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You appear to be miffed that I can easily point out the limitations of a large gun in a house in a neighborhood. Generally, when people attach the poster, it isn't because he isn't making sense.
Nope not miffed at all. I don't see any limitations at all. You seem to be keen on insinuating that when things go bump in the night that people sweep their homes with a gun in the pocket (that's not real world sir). If something happens and I feel the need that a gun needs to be involved, I'm not worried about false alarms seeing my AR or SG. And if I do take my pistol instead it certainly isn't in my pocket so either way someone is gonna see a firearm pointing at them.

So again what's the difference between a drunk person stumbling in your house accidentally and seeing a sub compact 9 pointed at them or a 12 gauge?

And you make it sound like an AR is hard to manipulate inside a home. It really isn't. By all means if it is for you then use what your comfortable with but that doesn't make the AR platform a bad choice for HD. It's actually a great platform for cqb
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