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Old August 17, 2014, 02:43 PM   #1
Koda94
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cheap hollowpoint target loads?

Does anyone sell target loads with hollowpoints?

When I do a quick search comparing FMJ vs Hollowpoint bullets (9mm) I see a 2 cent different in price. When I buy target loads its always in FMJ which I dont mind but the markup on HP loads is always way out of comparison to the simple cost difference of the bullets alone. All HP loads I see on the shelf are marketed as "premium" self defense loads, I get that...

So when I go training I almost never shoot HP loads only exception is when I want to validate a new supply as I rotate out old supply. Over time using various brands of whatever is the cheapest FMJ target loads I've never had issues with quality or accuracy.

So my questions are...
What other differences are there in quality of the premium SD hollowpoint loads, other than the HP bullet, that makes them so much more expensive... are they really worth the price?

Does anyone sell cheap loads with a hollowpoint bullet?
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Old August 17, 2014, 03:16 PM   #2
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What's the benefit of hollow points for target and range use?
Most targets don't care; a hole is a hole.
They would be fun on melons, though.
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Old August 17, 2014, 03:31 PM   #3
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well, if you roll your own, then extreme bullets makes their plated HP for just a few cents more than the round nose. when it comes to Russian rifle ammo, its the same price between fmj and hollow. for pistol ammo, the only cheap hollow-point ammo I know of is PPU(privePartizan) and they are also similar in price to the fmj, and not a bad hollow-point either.

youll have to find it in-stock, but here it is, I found some at an Academy for about 16$ a box in 9mm
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=AP9JHP147
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Old August 17, 2014, 03:41 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.willikers
What's the benefit of hollow points for target and range use?
Most targets don't care; a hole is a hole.
They would be fun on melons, though.
its not about the target its the function in the firearm, I only train with FMJ because that's whats affordable but it doesn't represent what I'd rather be using for exactly what I'm training for.... Technically we should be practicing with the same thing as we carry!
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Old August 17, 2014, 03:56 PM   #5
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B.b.but not all hollow points are the same.
If the good stuff works in your gun, there's no guarantee the cheap stuff will.
And the point of impact could be different, too, along with recoil.
Just saying.
The only real way to practice like you carry is to use the exact same everything.
Anything else is a compromise, anyway.
Personally, I would continue to use the fmj ammo and not sweat the small stuff.
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Old August 17, 2014, 04:26 PM   #6
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Personally, I would continue to use the fmj ammo and not sweat the small stuff.
I agree, this isn't a major deal to me just curious. It became a curiosity when I looked and saw that a hollowpoint bullet doesn't cost that much more than a FMJ (in general) I thought why isn't someone making a cheaper HP loading? You would think they would take advantage of marketing the cheaper price point...
The way I see it is why not, but I guess reality is its a marketing thing... people are sold on the idea that they don't want to bet their life on "cheap" bullets but my suspicion is there isn't much difference in usable end result performance other than the bullet design in the context of self defense training, I've never had any accuracy issues with various cheap FMJ target loads.
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Old August 17, 2014, 04:30 PM   #7
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Like you say, folks are conditioned to pay more for them super duper, knock 'em into next week, hollow points.
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Old August 18, 2014, 05:04 AM   #8
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Yes, there are inexpensive, non-premium hollowpoint loads out there. In the current market every affordable type of ammo is rare, but they exist. Remington makes their cheap UMC in 9mm JHP, for instance.
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Old August 18, 2014, 08:36 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koda94
What other differences are there in quality of the premium SD hollowpoint loads, other than the HP bullet, that makes them so much more expensive... are they really worth the price?
Asides from the bullet, the more expensive SD loadings may have nickel-plated cases for extra corrosion resistance, powder blends optimized for less muzzle flash, and/or primers sealed with lacquer for extra water resistance.

FWIW assuming you prefer supersonic 115-124gr defensive loads, I find that a decent range simulation is 9mm NATO. Military specifications require a fairly healthy level of muzzle energy, so 9mm NATO is generally loaded hotter and feels snappier than garden-variety FMJ practice ammo, and it doesn't cost much more... assuming you can find it. (In my area, the 9mm shortage is arguably over in the broader sense, but supplies of certain varieties of ammo are still spotty, and 9mm NATO seems to be one of those varieties.)
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Old August 18, 2014, 03:15 PM   #10
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As you noticed, low end hollow point component bullets aren't much more expensive than corresponding FMJ or plated bullets.

The solution is obvious. If you want JHP range fodder at the price of FMJs, then roll your own. Reload them using those low end hollow points that you can order online.
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Old August 18, 2014, 03:32 PM   #11
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You can get hollowpoint plated bullets at a reasonable price from Rannier and Berry's
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Old August 18, 2014, 07:27 PM   #12
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I used to be able to buy WWB 115 gr. JHP in 9mm for close to the same price as their FMJ. I can't even remember the last time I saw that ammo locally.
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Old August 18, 2014, 07:32 PM   #13
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Speer used to make their defensive loads in both "Duty" form (brass cased) Lawman branded and their "practice" form (aluminum cased) Blaser brand

Used to train with the 200gn JHP Blaser and carry the same load in the Lawman. When shooting both mixed in a mag, nobody could tell the difference. Even at 50 yds...same poa/poi.
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Old August 18, 2014, 09:06 PM   #14
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These might be inexpensive enough for both target and carry.

http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/Feder...Ammo-p/9bp.htm

http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/CCI-S...nt-p/53612.htm

$17 to $25 for a box of 50 is about 1/2 what other uber cartridges go for.
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Old August 19, 2014, 08:26 AM   #15
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Eghads, if there ever was a notion to switch to 9mm to avoid reloading, those prices are a mind changer.
Never mind and forget-about-it.
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Old August 20, 2014, 11:18 PM   #16
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Onward Allusion thanks for sharing that. The Federal prices are what I'm paying for FMJ target loads. I guess my query had merit all along. There is even some 45acp JHP within a few dollars of what Im paying for FMJ around here.
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Old August 20, 2014, 11:37 PM   #17
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g.willikers always makes me laugh:

Quote:
They would be fun on melons, though.
But seriously. . .

There's only one affordable way for most of us to practice with hollow points. That's right. Load your own.
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Old August 23, 2014, 11:56 AM   #18
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I hand load a lot with xtremebullets plated hollow point. It is for practice only, including target shooting. The ammo I keep in our emergency supply box has the real jacketed hollow point bullets. I haven't read report on the plated bullet's expansion performance, that's why.

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Old August 23, 2014, 03:40 PM   #19
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HP's won't expand reliably at target load velocities. And a cast HP is a total waste of lead. Cast bullets expand(more like deform) when they hit anything. Plated bullets are not jacketed bullets. The plating is there to reduce the amount of lead in the air on indoor ranges. No point in a plated HP either. Velocities.
"...when I go training..." Training to do what? You should practice with the ammo you intend using for CCW. Assuming that's what you're training to do.
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Old August 23, 2014, 03:53 PM   #20
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Practicing with the same ammo as you carry for Defense...the only reason to do that is to make sure the defensive ammo feeds in your gun.../ once you've established that the defensive ammo feeds reliably ...you don't need to shoot 600 rds of it a week for training...

I think you can determine if the defensive ammo is reliable by running 50 rds of it....

Then switch over to FMJ or whatever you want to train with....
-------
I suppose you should shoot the same spec ...that you want to carry ...so shoot 115 gr FMJ for practice ....if you want to carry 115 JHP for defense...at about the same velocity...so you can evaluate your split times between shots...but personally my split times don't vary much ...even if I practice with a 1911 in 9mm and carry a 1911 in .45 acp ( I ran drills just last week...with essentially the same gun ...one in 9mm / one in .45 acp ....and my times were almost identical to draw and 1 shot on target...and my split times to the 2nd, 3rd shot were almost identical../ and since its the same platform ( 1911's, both steel, both 5" guns...my reload times were the same too...)...
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Old August 23, 2014, 04:46 PM   #21
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Materials aside, I was under the impression that the "premium" JHP's undergo far more rigorous QC. That slows the process down, and drives the price up.
WWB JHP's, not so much - which is why they don't cost all that much more.

Also - and I'll admit that I'm no expert in the particulars - there's a fairly wide range of JHP's. Just because you can find a JHP that's only $0.02 more, doesn't mean that the bullets inside the fancy defensive loads would cost the same.

Finally - there's probably a certain amount of basic "supply and demand" mechanics at play. Since people are largely willing to pay what ammo manufactures charge, there's no real incentive to lower the price.
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Old August 23, 2014, 05:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJimP
Practicing with the same ammo as you carry for Defense...the only reason to do that is to make sure the defensive ammo feeds in your gun.../ once you've established that the defensive ammo feeds reliably ...you don't need to shoot 600 rds of it a week for training...
I agree with this, to clarify this isnt what my original post was about though. I was curious if anyone made JHP loads in the same pricepoint as FMJ target loads and I was curious if premium self defense HP loads were comparable in performance to cheaper JHP target loads.

turns out there are cheap JHP target loads available at or near enough the same price point as FMJ target loads. And the short answer on performance is there is a difference, so I'll continue to stay on the bet my life on the premium ammo wagon. I got what I wanted from this thread so anything more is pure discussion....

The way I see it, if I have the option I dont see any harm in mixing up some cheap hollowpoint loads for practice/training whatever you want to call it. Im thinking it more like qualifying that the pistol can handle hundreds/thousands of various loads vs qualifying 50rds of specific expensive ammo that I might not find again some next ammo shortage or other crisis....
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Old August 23, 2014, 05:41 PM   #23
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OK, I think I understand your point better .../ but since I can reload my practice ammo in 9mm for about $6.50 for a box of 50. I only buy 3 or 4 boxes of the defense ammo that I tested, and for the defense ammo that I like, in that caliber / and since I never retest it. ...no need to replace it unless I change guns for some reason. I check the carry ammo once in awhile to make sure I'm not getting any bullet setback./ but I don't shoot much or hardly any of the defensive ammo.

Whether you choose to get involved in reloading or not ( and to me its part of the hobby / not just to save some money ) ...the cost of ammo is a factor in how much a lot of shooters can practice. Part of practicing - is you need to make sure the round you choose to carry / will run 100% in your gun -- but after you've done that...its all about keeping the cost down, the best you can, and still have reliable ammo for practice.

I'm in my 60's now...and if I don't shoot at least twice a week...my skills seem to erode pretty quickly - especially in terms of my speed on ( my draw from holster to my 1st shot on target ...on my reloads..and to some extent on my split times between shots). So to me, however you can justify the 3 to 4 boxes per practice session ...a couple times a week...is how to best maintain your skill vs what kind of bullet you shoot ( FMJ, JHP, etc )...is the most important thing to me.

So reloading - finding another source for your ammo - buying in case lots...all of that makes sense to me / but it needs to be good quality ammo ....some of these "reloads" I see selling at the gunshows make me real nervous. An acquaintance bought some cheaper reloads at the last show...and when he's firing them...we're hearing significantly different muzzle reports from his gun on about every 3rd shot...may be a powder issue, crimp issue, etc...so whatever he saved on that deal, was not his best option.

Ammo prices in general...and how it relates to bullet type is interesting...and it seems to vary a lot by caliber as well ..just based on what I was seeing at my local range yesterday.

To your point about material cost not being considered in ammo pricing on retail level, I agree....especially when I look at Montana Gold bullets, which is a premium bullet that I reload in 9mm ( 115 gr JHP are $380 per case / 115 CMJ are $ 380 a case & 115 FMJ are $368 a case ....( case is 4,000 ) ...and that makes sense to me because the FMJ does not have a jacketed base..so it should be a little cheaper...and CMJ is only a little more...and the JHP is only a little more - despite the extra step to form the Hollow Point. And with the cost of the bullet making up probably 60% of the cost of my reloads...it would seem to prove your initial point.

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Old August 24, 2014, 11:44 AM   #24
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My initial thought was that the high cost of "premium" self defense round was a marketing thing and was wondering if they really weren't worth it. But in reality they are because the other components are higher quality as well but mostly the process is more controlled to produce consistency. Better powder more accurately measured, higher velocities for reliable expansion... I can see now why there is not a high demand for cheap JHP loads
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Old August 24, 2014, 05:44 PM   #25
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MagTech also makes reasonably priced hollow point factory ammo.
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