tula 45acp case wall blowout.....

[Evil Monkey]

24 posts in and I'm still confused as to what this guy is trying to get at here.

really? What part of 'it's not always the ammo's fault' do you not understand?

I've proposed multiple arguments on why ammo shouldn't always be blamed when things go wrong and yet you still don't get it.

I think some of you choose to be ignorant on purpose.

[WildBill45]

These handguns have limited engineering space

SOME engineers are like this ... they know 100 ways to love a woman BUT, they don't have a girlfriend!!!

This is why the engineer builds the bat and the batter hits the balls! Two worlds, two skill sets, etc...

Chuck Yeager didn't design the aircraft, he just had the skills to fly and the courage to test, that changed the world!!!

[Beagle45ACP]

really? What part of 'it's not always the ammo's fault' do you not understand?

The part where we needed a thread to discuss it.....

[polyphemus]

does a 1911 have a supported chamber?

Yes.

[Mike Irwin]

"Sometimes during the manufacturing process of drawing the casing, I suspect the grain of the material is not ideal in some spots. As far as I know, there's no QC to deal with that. It happens with any material (brass, aluminum, steel) in any ammunition manufacturing facility."

I'm with you right here.

"If anything is to be held accountable, it's usually the firearm."

That's where you lose me.

The fault isn't the firearm, or case 'burn throughs' (as I call them) would be happening a LOT more frequently than just once every few thousand rounds, if that. A problem with the chamber bad enough to cause a case burn through would make itself known with just about every shot in the form or more case burn throughs, consistently difficult extraction (especially with brass), or misshapen brass.

The fact that it's apparently NOT happening means that you had a base case. Nothing more.

It's not the fault of the gun, it is, as you say, a flaw in the case that manifests itself during the drawing process. Some brass cases will stand up to multiple reloads before they suffer a burn through, others will burn through on the first firing out of a box of factory ammo.




"These handguns have limited engineering space. Corners, sometimes literally, have to be cut in order to attain certain requirements."

You don't think that happens in the manufacture of ammunition?





"I have never seen these issues with 9mm or 40sw. Or maybe I'm not looking hard enough."

I've had brass burn through in 9mm. In .45. In .38 Special. In .357 Magnum. In .22 Long Rifle (in both rifles and handguns). In .380. And in .44 Special.

I generally don't shoot steel-cased ammo (other than milsurp 7.62x39).

[Mike Irwin]

Oh, and for everyone's edification?

Dial back the snark right now.

I don't like where this is headed, and when I don't like it, others quickly come to not like it.

[Mike Irwin]

OK, I see a lot of imprecise terminology being bandied about here.

Evil Monkey, what you suffered was a case split that originated in the case body, most likely at the mouth.

That does not result in a "blown up" gun. If you had been shooting brass you very likely never would have noticed it at all.

A "blown up" gun


A FAR more serious issue is a blow out at the case head. This is almost always caused by some sort of overpressure, such as this one...



That was one of my handloads that I chumped -- pure user error. I was working on a new press and managed to double charge a case with WW 231. 9.8 grains, instead of 4.9 grains, makes one HELL of a fireball when you pull the trigger.

Even with that kind of abuse, the gun, a Springfield Mil Spec 1911-A1, was undamaged. I replaced the (completely trashed) magazine, cleared the case, made sure that the extractor was still in one piece, and went on shooting.

A case head rupture is possibly the most serious failure of all. It can be caused by an overload or a bad case, but if the split goes through the case head, it can cause real problems, especially in a high powered rifle.

I've seen one true case head split, apparently caused by the failure of a factory new case, and it absolutely destroyed a Remington 700.




"Some people have dozens of steel casings on the ground that are completely blown out, yet the weapon continues to operate."

This statement really means nothing, because we don't know HOW they are "blown out."

If residual chamber pressure is high enough during the extraction cycle, case expansion can occur. This is seen in some blowback operated firearms.

[James K]

Hi, Mike,

I can't read the headstamp on that case, but it looks very much like one of the many brands, mostly imports, that have almost a balloon head case, used to save case material, especially brass. Those are fine ordinarily (the Hungarian "Lake City" cases are made that way, and I have fired literally thousands of rounds with no problem) but a combination of high pressure in a reload, weak case support, and/or an OOB condition will pose greater danger of a blowout with that type of case head.

Hi, Evil Monkey,

I am sure we all want to learn, and I think it would help if you could provide us with the basis of your expertise in firearms and ammunition design and engineering. All of us like to think we could be gun designers*, but it is rare for a real expert to show up.

Jim

*It has been said that the only two jobs most guys think they could do with no training, experience, or knowledge are movie actor and President of the United States.

JK

[Mike Irwin]

"I can't read the headstamp on that case, but it looks very much like one of the many brands, mostly imports, that have almost a balloon head case, used to save case material, especially brass."

Nope. Solid head. I THINK it was a Remington case, but after so many years I'm not so sure.

I'll have to find it and see.

[IdahoG36]

Evil Monkey, I guess I'm a bit lost now with this thread. If your catastrophic failure was neither due to faulty ammunition or faulty firearm design, what ultimately caused the case to rupture???

It sounds as if you chalk it up to faulty metallurgy perhaps? Wouldn't that be the fault of the ammunition manufacturer since they are producing the cases?

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm just one of those"range retards" that did not attend MIT and get my PhD in firearms engineering and design.

[Mike Irwin]

Could have been the fault of the foundry that created the steel mix. One of those random things that just happens that simply cannot be prevented.

[45_auto]

Could be that the gun has an oversized chamber, either at the very top or slightly over the allowable tolerance. 99.999% of the brass or steel cases will still be able to stretch enough to accommodate it without splitting. However, that 1 case in 10,000 that is at the very edge of the small case tolerance range will not be able to stretch enough and will split.

Splits are a very common occurrence, happens all the time on brass cases that have been loaded multiple times and have work hardened from stretching and being resized. Doesn't affect anything. No different than shooting a muzzleloader as long as the head remains intact.

Only critical part of the case is the head, which is an integral part of the chamber seal. Only function of the case wall is to hold the powder and bullet in place until the powder lights. Several years ago we tested .223 which used a brass head with a plastic case wall.

http://imgur.com/gallery/8qJXRnP

I figure that if plastic is good enough, pretty much any type of metal (steel, brass, aluminum) is overkill!

[Mosin-Marauder]

I love steel cased ammo .

[Mike Irwin]

"Splits are a very common occurrence, happens all the time on brass cases that have been loaded multiple times and have work hardened from stretching and being resized."

I would say that it's not nearly as common as it seems you're saying.

I've got a couple hundred .45 ACP cases that have seen as many as 30 reloadings, and my split loss has been fewer than dozen.

I have some .38 Special cases that are very likely approaching 70 reloadings, and the split loss has been maybe 1 percent.

You are correct, though, that the resizing process can contribute to this. Revolver rounds are especially prone to it if they're heavily roll crimped.

[243winxb]

This brass died from old age, so should this thread. [IMG][/IMG] +1 What Mike Irwin said.

[Mike Irwin]

Yep, classic case split, what I call a case burn through.

[geetarman]

EM,

After reading through the thread, the only real conclusion I can reach is that you are looking for confrontation. We really don't need this do we?

[James K]

There is another reason for brass splitting, usually seen in military rifle ammunition, though it is not a common any more. During wartime, powder manufacture becomes hurried and sometimes the acid used in making powder is not completely washed out of the powder. When cartridges are left lying on their sides in long term storage, that acid can eat into the brass cartridge case from the inside. There is seldom any indication of the damage on the outside, but when the cartridge is fired, the brass splits or burns through at the weakened spot.

Note that this has nothing to do with the primer or the priming material; it related only to the powder.

Jim

[Big Shrek]

Tula seems to be on several range's list of "unacceptable ammo".

Two local ranges check for it & Wolf steel, does not allow them to be used on site...

[Evil Monkey]

"If anything is to be held accountable, it's usually the firearm."

That's where you lose me.

I said "usually". Meaning 9 times out of 10. It's not always the firearms fault, but the way it is built/designed certainly helps.

Evil Monkey, what you suffered was a case split that originated in the case body, most likely at the mouth.

5+mm vertical split. Did not reach case web or mouth.

Hi, Evil Monkey,

I am sure we all want to learn, and I think it would help if you could provide us with the basis of your expertise in firearms and ammunition design and engineering. All of us like to think we could be gun designers*, but it is rare for a real expert to show up.

I'm not an expert.

Evil Monkey, I guess I'm a bit lost now with this thread. If your catastrophic failure was neither due to faulty ammunition or faulty firearm design, what ultimately caused the case to rupture???

Poor granularity in the casing that cannot be QC'ed by the manufacturer.

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm just one of those"range retards"

I would not call you that.

Could have been the fault of the foundry that created the steel mix. One of those random things that just happens that simply cannot be prevented.

Exactly.

fter reading through the thread, the only real conclusion I can reach is that you are looking for confrontation.

nope.

Tula seems to be on several range's list of "unacceptable ammo".

I think a major problem, is steel cased western calibers in locked breach firearms.

Due to the brittle nature of soft steel compared to annealed brass, there is a higher likelihood of a steel case splitting and resulting in a stuck casing that requires disassembly to remove, more in thin walled non-tapered western cartridges, than in Russian cartridges.

45acp and 40sw being big culprits.

"Some people have dozens of steel casings on the ground that are completely blown out, yet the weapon continues to operate."

This statement really means nothing, because we don't know HOW they are "blown out."

These came from a mac 10 and never got stuck, I assume due to the blow back operating system which does not involve a locked breach.

[Insecto]

I bought a set of the most expensive road tires for my pickup truck. Said tires were defective in that they did not have steel belt reinforcements they were supposed to have, and this was unnoticed by QC. While going 55 on the highway two tires blew up, I lost control and totaled my truck. Following the logic on this thread truck manufacturer is at fault because he did not design truck to function properly on two blown up tires. I'm an idiot!

[RsqVet]

Evil --

Given the crack in the Tula case you describe what does support or lack of support have to do with anything as the case failure did not occur in the area of the case which is what is discussed when discussing supported or unsupported chambers? I do not think it is safe to assume that the unsupported area in another gun's chamber would have blown out as the case wall is going to be thicker there, and depending upon how the case is made the metal there may well be less brittle / less work hardened. It may be possible but it is far from a given in my opinion.

Maybe the Mac rounds did not get stuck because the Mac had a looser chamber (actually was that not mentioned in the Uzi talk thread that picutre was from? I have seen it before)? or a more finely polished chamber? We can't know. Not digging at Taurus but it does not take much in the way of a rough finish to make a casing stick in a chamber. I can not count the number of Ruger 22 chambers I have had to polish to increase reliability or even ease extraction in revolvers.

I would find the experience that you had with Tula ammo to be unacceptable. While you may have fired 1500 rounds without issue, when you did have an issue it was a significant pain and if your theory is correct could have damaged other guns more. I find 1 in 1500 to be unacceptable, given the fact I have a 5 gallon pail of brass 45 casings from this year with no failures like that.

I do suspect that it is a materials problem. No idea if they anneal the cases after making them, if so maybe that one slipped through? Or it's a bad steel lot, or a heavy charge? Either way this should not happen, and there should be enough of a safety margin / fudge factor or QC that this does to happen.

Given that the 45 acp is a rather low pressure round I would not be running to the store to buy some 40 S+W tula ammo........

Lastly when it comes to steel case ammo no one can convince me that it i a good idea to replace all of the brass on steel sliding / wear that occurs in a gun with steel on steel.

[Evil Monkey]

Maybe the Mac rounds did not get stuck because the Mac had a looser chamber (actually was that not mentioned in the Uzi talk thread that picutre was from? I have seen it before)?

Yes it was discussed. The reason i didn't mention that is because I have read instances way back regarding 45acp wolf splitting in semi auto PCC's and they kept cycling. I figured the loose chambered mac 10 was no more than a coincidence.

I can't prove this, but I think that steel case splits are "normal" for the Russian ammunition philosophy. It's no wonder they account for this problem with severely tapered cartridges. Western ammo is based on brass and the transition to steel can cause problems.

i still have the casing that split. it doesn't look bulged out much at all. But man was it a pain to get out. I remember taking out a small screw driver to pry the casing out with the rim and the screw driver bent.

Given that the 45 acp is a rather low pressure round I would not be running to the store to buy some 40 S+W tula ammo........

I shoot alot of 40sw tula out of my M&P40. So far so good.......but you never know. From what I see, the 40sw case walls are thicker.

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by mike irwin

I would say that it's not nearly as common as it seems you're saying.

I have some .38 Special cases that are very likely approaching 70 reloadings, and the split loss has been maybe 1 percent.

Your call. Around here we usually shoot at least 200 or 300 rounds per person every time we go to the range. 2 or 3 split cases per person (1%) would be considered much MORE than common, it would be considered unusual.

I consider it to be a common occurrence since I usually find one or two split cases among every several thousand pieces of brass being reloaded. Nobody bothers to pick up steel cases, I have no idea what their "split frequency" is.

A SEAL unit used to use our range for practice. Payment was that we got to keep the brass and ammo cans (then after several years they annexed the range and kicked us off!). We scrapped the machine gun brass (generous chambers, lots of stretch), and there were LOTS of splits in it, much more than 1%. We always figured it was because of the oversized MG chambers.

If your gun can't handle a split case, get a new gun.

[Mike Irwin]

"These came from a mac 10 and never got stuck, I assume due to the blow back operating system which does not involve a locked breach."

Exactly. A completely different scenario. That's exactly what I meant when I said "If residual chamber pressure is high enough during the extraction cycle, case expansion can occur. This is seen in some blowback operated firearms" in a previous post.


"I said "usually". Meaning 9 times out of 10. It's not always the firearms fault, but the way it is built/designed certainly helps."

And I still think you're way off base. Going back to your original post, while not common, out of batter firing CAN certainly be an ammo problem if the primer is incorrectly seated. But what you're describing is NOT an out of battery firing, but a split that originated in the case wall well above the case head and is completely unrelated to whether or not the gun was in battery.

Chambers that are not fully supported have been in use for well over 100 years, and have shown to be a non-issue with properly loaded ammunition.

The case picture I lined above is a perfect example of an improperly loaded case (by me) blowing out in the unsupported part of the barrel.

Gun's fault? No.

The only recent issue where a gun with an unsupported barrel was truly the issue were the first generation Glock .40s with hot reloads. The unsupported part of the chamber was simply too large. It was generally fine with factory ammo, but with hot (but in book spec) reloads the case had a very high potential for failure -- the semi-legendary Glock Kaboom.

I personally witnessed several Glock KBs, and saw the aftermath of several others. All involved first gen .40s, and all but 1 involved hot reloads.