Real life scenario

mjn · December 9, 2001, 10:53 PM

This talk about jewelry stores and HD scenarios brings to mind an incident that actually happened here recently:

Guy goes into a small jewelry store, pulls a handgun, and announces a robbery. Owner says, basically, "no problem, take what you want", while pushing the silent alarm button. BG loads up and walks out the door, only to find himself looking down the muzzles of about five police shotguns. He quickly drops the gun, gives up, and goes off to prison.

Note here that the good guy never pulled a gun- I don't know if he even had one- and I can't imagine a better outcome to the situation. I think there's a tendency to think that the solution to any such problem is "pull a gun and start blasting", but isn't it true that that's often a good way to escalate the situation to people getting killed unnecessarily? How do you decide when to shoot?

yorec · December 10, 2001, 12:03 AM

One of the key aspect to concealed carry is surprise. If a BG has drawn his gun and is being aggressive about it (pointing it at his intended victims), most people are not going to be able to outdraw him from a concealed carry holster - all he has to do is point and shoot. Worst case senario I can think off is to be held at gunpoint (BG is actually pointing gun at me) and be told by the BG that he is going to kill me now and I can see in his eyes that he means it. That CCW holster is a long way off right about then. So CCW countermeasures should hopefully be taken when he is looking away or is distracted. Surprise is very deisirable - that's one reason my carry gun is "concealed."

Even when surprise can be achieved, it is not always a good idea to be drawing and shooting. There is no need to fire rounds at a BG just becasue he is a BG. If he is not directly threatening someone with death or serious bodily harm, I think it best to just be a good witness and wait the situation out. My decision to take action will be based on whether I believe someone is in imminant danger from the BG. I have to be convinced that he is going to shoot someone, then I'll try to stop him. Otherwise, if he's just going to take the money and run - See ya in the lineup!

ICBentley · December 10, 2001, 01:45 AM

Police response time vs. time the BG spends in the shop and the damage the BG does prior to leaving whic all too often includes gratuitous killing of the storekeeper are important factors here. Any one of these could have turned this into a less than optimal outcome.

If the BG were a pro this scenario seems unlikely as he would likely have spent less time (they often know approximate police response time) or been vigilant or careful enough to prevent tripping the alarm.

A silent alarm is not sufficient. And as yorec pointed out, neither is a concealed gun. Both provide better protection than either alone.

BTW I read a news report just a few days ago of a storekeeper who completely averted a robbery by showing a handgun. It is neither necessary nor very wise to "pull a gun and start blasting." Most defense handgun courses provide training as to when to shoot and when not to shoot.

Vigilance, training, prethinking and a cool head along with multiple options for handling varying situations is the best bet. Still nothing is perfect.

Bentley

"A knifeless man is a lifeless man"
- Nordic proverb

striderteen · December 14, 2001, 01:47 AM

This is why I support legalizing concealed carry with minimal restrictions...the BG cannot look everywhere, if he's looking at the shop owner he's not looking at the other people in the store.

December 9, 2001, 10:53 PM	#1
mjn Member Join Date: November 16, 2001 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 68	Real life scenario This talk about jewelry stores and HD scenarios brings to mind an incident that actually happened here recently: Guy goes into a small jewelry store, pulls a handgun, and announces a robbery. Owner says, basically, "no problem, take what you want", while pushing the silent alarm button. BG loads up and walks out the door, only to find himself looking down the muzzles of about five police shotguns. He quickly drops the gun, gives up, and goes off to prison. Note here that the good guy never pulled a gun- I don't know if he even had one- and I can't imagine a better outcome to the situation. I think there's a tendency to think that the solution to any such problem is "pull a gun and start blasting", but isn't it true that that's often a good way to escalate the situation to people getting killed unnecessarily? How do you decide when to shoot?

December 10, 2001, 12:03 AM	#2
yorec Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,328	One of the key aspect to concealed carry is surprise. If a BG has drawn his gun and is being aggressive about it (pointing it at his intended victims), most people are not going to be able to outdraw him from a concealed carry holster - all he has to do is point and shoot. Worst case senario I can think off is to be held at gunpoint (BG is actually pointing gun at me) and be told by the BG that he is going to kill me now and I can see in his eyes that he means it. That CCW holster is a long way off right about then. So CCW countermeasures should hopefully be taken when he is looking away or is distracted. Surprise is very deisirable - that's one reason my carry gun is "concealed." Even when surprise can be achieved, it is not always a good idea to be drawing and shooting. There is no need to fire rounds at a BG just becasue he is a BG. If he is not directly threatening someone with death or serious bodily harm, I think it best to just be a good witness and wait the situation out. My decision to take action will be based on whether I believe someone is in imminant danger from the BG. I have to be convinced that he is going to shoot someone, then I'll try to stop him. Otherwise, if he's just going to take the money and run - See ya in the lineup! __________________ What part of "... shall not be infringed..." don't you understand?

December 10, 2001, 01:45 AM	#3
ICBentley Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2000 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 169	Police response time vs. time the BG spends in the shop and the damage the BG does prior to leaving whic all too often includes gratuitous killing of the storekeeper are important factors here. Any one of these could have turned this into a less than optimal outcome. If the BG were a pro this scenario seems unlikely as he would likely have spent less time (they often know approximate police response time) or been vigilant or careful enough to prevent tripping the alarm. A silent alarm is not sufficient. And as yorec pointed out, neither is a concealed gun. Both provide better protection than either alone. BTW I read a news report just a few days ago of a storekeeper who completely averted a robbery by showing a handgun. It is neither necessary nor very wise to "pull a gun and start blasting." Most defense handgun courses provide training as to when to shoot and when not to shoot. Vigilance, training, prethinking and a cool head along with multiple options for handling varying situations is the best bet. Still nothing is perfect. Bentley "A knifeless man is a lifeless man" - Nordic proverb

December 14, 2001, 01:47 AM	#4
striderteen Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2001 Location: Pasadena, California Posts: 590	This is why I support legalizing concealed carry with minimal restrictions...the BG cannot look everywhere, if he's looking at the shop owner he's not looking at the other people in the store.