Newbie With One or Two Questions

[Sulaco]

I'm a long-time shooter, been on this forum for ages, though I mostly just lurk. Anyway, I want to start doing some reloading for one of my guns, a Glock 20.

I don't shoot much right now, I have other stuff taking up my time. And I live in a small place with close neighbors so noise and storage space is a SERIOUS issue.

Bench mounting (even temporarily) will not work for me at all. I need a hand press, like the Lee. A tumbler isn't going to work either. Even if I had room to set it up (which I don't), and even if it is was whisper quiet (which it won't be because I can't afford one of those), I just don't have the setup to support a normal reloading process.

So all of that being said, I'm looking at the Lee breech lock hand press kit that comes with the funnel and powder measures. I'm going to get the Lee carbide 4-piece dies.

Since I won't be tumbling, lets temporarily suspend the belief that cleaning brass to sanitary levels is necessary. Is it? I mean really, if I'm using a carbide die and doing small amounts at a time, is it really necessary to "clean" brass in the traditional tumbler/sonic/soap & water way? What about just a good wipe down? I don't care if the brass is tarnished. Heck, most of my new brass gets tarnished pretty quick just from handling. So what happens if I don't get my brass clean?

Also, what's the standby powder for 10mm? Manuals are all over the place w/ load data, showing all sorts of different powders. Lots of guys seem to like Blue Dot. Is it ideal for the 10mm?

I already have some brass and bullets. I just need the powder and the setup before I can get going (have the latest Lee Modern Reloading manual also and have read it among others like the ABC's, etc.).

Thanks for any and all info, even if I don't agree with you!

[Unclenick]

The Lee hand press and dies are just fine. Even after circumstances improve to allow you to have loading bench, you'll still find the hand tool easy to take to the range for load work-ups.

You need a means of dispensing powder. A set of Lee Dippers was around $10 last time I looked and will work just fine if you want to use a range of powders. One dipper will have come with the dies, and it will include a list that tells you which powders it works with for what bullet weights. With that dipper, those will be your only powder choices.

Cleaning brass is functionally to remove dirt and grit so your gun and dies don't wear out from abrading by it. Shiny brass is just to be easier to find in the grass. Just put your the cases in a gallon milk jug with a spoonful of dishwashing liquid and shake them up. That will do for dirt removal. Rinse them with plain water a couple of times and put them on a piece of aluminum foil and let them dry out in the oven at about 250-300°F for an hour. That's nowhere near warm enough to soften brass (that starts at about 480°F, so don't get them that warm). This is to dry water out of the primer pockets.

If your water leaves bad water spots, then do your final rinse with just enough distilled water that they all get wet with it when you splash them around in the jug.

You can also get a separate Lee universal decapper die and decap before cleaning without getting grit into your sizing die. The universal decapper die won't care about dirt. With the primers removed ahead of sizing, where it normally happens, you can more easily wash and dry for a couple of days in air without using the oven. With the primers in place drying without the oven can take a very long time, and you don't want to try to prime a wet primer pocket. But with primers removed you can easily see when the water is gone.

[cryogenic419]

For some cleaning brass to immaculate levels is necessary, for others they just pop the old primer out and load again. Like Unclenick mentioned you may want to clean them somehow just to get the grit and leftover whatever out of them so you aren't introducing that crap to your gun barrel or your dies.

I have had good luck with Longshot and 800X in 10MM. Tried Blue Dot once, wasn't real impressed with it but every gun is different and what works for some may not work for others.

[Sulaco]

Thanks guys!

[Wreck-n-Crew]

For some cleaning brass to immaculate levels is necessary, for others they just pop the old primer out and load again. Like Unclenick mentioned you may want to clean them somehow just to get the grit and leftover whatever out of them so you aren't introducing that crap to your gun barrel or your dies.

The Lee Breach Lock Challenger Kit http://www.brownells.com/reloading/r...010147_d_22194 I bought comes with a Lee Pocket Primer Tool that cleans the pocket in just a few twist. Saves a little time from cleaning the brass if you have a busy week and just want to throw a few together for the range.

Figured when I got serious I could de-prime with the single stage before tumbling and use a nice progressive like http://www.midwayusa.com/product/673...gressive-press the RCBS Pro2000 Progressive Press which a friend of mine bought and I love it.

[Nick_C_S]

Before I tumbled, I used to wash them in a bucket of water with some dish soap. It's not a "whisper quiet" operation though. After washing, I would lay them in the sun on newspaper to dry. I didn't even know tumblers existed (not sure how I missed that one - other than there was no internet at the time).

I just started loading 10mm too (for my new Glock's 29SF & 20SF). So I don't have any load data proven enough to be worthy of quoting, as of yet. But I will say that I'm focusing on Power Pistol for the hot rounds, and AA2 for a lighter round (180g on both).

Power Pistol, AA5, Blue Dot; and of course, Unique <--- the ubiquitous all-around great powder - all seem to be fairly popular.

BTW, Glocks are brutal on brass. But that's a whole forum string in and of itself.

[Sulaco]

Thanks again for the info folks. Nick, I know what you mean. I thought it was funny that the two "test" cartridges in the envelope both had nice, big Glock smilies in them. Granted they were Blazer aluminum cases!

[WESHOOT2]

IME the best single choice for a 10mm do-everything powder remains Vihtavuori N350.

IF I were unable to acquire N350 I would instead be happy with Alliant Power Pistol.

[oldpapps]

"... And I live in a small place with close neighbors so noise and storage space is a SERIOUS issue".

Noise - this can be a problem with a 'rattle tub', not the way to go here, a one or two barrel rotating rubber tumbler filled with brass, steel pins and liquid makes so little noise I forget that mine is running. Check Harbor Freight for cheap ones. Space - When I was playing in Uncle's long term camp, I kept all of my reloading stuff, including casting equipment, in a lockable metal trunk and with padding, uniforms, moved it from place to place. Today we have many sizes of plastic tubs. Short ones that will slide under a bed could be an answer to some storage.

"a hand press, like the Lee."

I have and some times use a Lee 'Hand Press', but don't find it covenant or conducive for use when making several rounds. A regular 'bench' type press can be mounted/unmounted with wing nuts to a chunk of 2 by 6 and that can be 'C' clamped to most any solid surface or stuck into a solid drawer.

"Lee breech lock hand press kit with the funnel and powder measures. I'm going to get the Lee carbide 4-piece dies."

I would opt to look at and get a set of scales and adjustable powder measure. You will be much more versatile and safer in you loadings. Carbide is always better than tool steel for straight walled cases.

"... cleaning brass to sanitary levels... using a carbide die... just a good wipe down..."

Clean brass provides a better view of cracks, splits and any other case failure. With a carbide sizing die, a clean case is not required but is preferred. A good 'wipe down' is good. I do that before I clean brass during my first inspection.

"... powder for 10mm? Manuals are all over the place"

Sorry, I don't do 10MMs. Loading data put together using all kinds of components, then tested in all sorts of weapons including 'universal receivers' with long barrels. The results will vary in the same weapon on differing days with changing weather. Your 'Modern Reloading' by Richard Lee is a good source. I understand that the enclosed loading data is gathered from many sources. I like to compare several sources for a homogenized 'starting load' and work from there.

Enjoy,

OSOK

[Sulaco]

Thanks alot, more great info and much to think about!

[mikld]

FWIW; I reloaded for 12 years before I got a tumbler (rotary style rock polisher). I just wiped each case with a mineral spirits dampened rag as I inspected it. Nope, my dies didn't wear out, and yep, I could spot defects.

I don't like kits as I like to research each tool/piece of equipment I use. I bought my presses by them selves and have a "rainbow colored" bench. Nuttin' wrong with a Lee Hand Press, I still have mine that I used before I had a dedicated reloading place. My press, dies, primers, box of bullets, and dippers all fit in a plastic shoe box (when I got more stuff I used another plastic shoebox for the scale and dribbler and other hand tools). Powder and brass on a shelf in the closet.

When I got a used single stage press I used a B&D Workmate for a press stand. I found a piece of scrap counter top, 26"x30" and screwed a piece of 1"x2" to the underside and bolted my press to the top. I could then clamp the counter top/press into the Workmate and load away. When done , I'd remove the top and fold up the Workmate; top went into the closet, and Workmate under the bed..

[Sevens]

Thanks for any and all info, even if I don't agree with you!

I like it! Here's my take.

I reloaded for many years without a tumbler... all was safe, ammo worked well. But now, I would never go forward without a tumbler. For one, it keeps the scuzz and filth out of your die... mostly your SIZING die, the one die that is the most important, the one die that can get wrecked or wear out.

For two... when you size a dirty case, they get almost WORSE as the dirt gets ironed on to the brass. This is hard to explain...until you do it & see it.

Third reason: it does make a difference on case inspection. I know some folks never inspect their brass, but it's an important step in the process when you care about the ammo you make, as I do. Clean, tumbled brass makes inspection MILES easier and it makes all your handling of the brass & loaded ammo a far, far more tidy and way less grungy, filthy project.

Fourth reason: pride. The folks who don't care couldn't ever be convinced... and nobody should convince them, because it's a personal thing. But I *do* take pride in my ammo and much of it looks like hell if you don't tumble the brass. I will readily admit that this is a very personal thing... and the folks who sonic clean their brass have stuff that makes MINE look like hell, so it's easy for me to admit that it's all a personal comfort level. I don't look down on a guy if his handloads don't look as "pretty" as mine, but I feel crappy about my own handloads if I don't do what I can to make them how I want.

A decent tumbler doesn't cost a lot of money and it doesn't make as much noise as a typical low-priced dishwasher does. It's a pretty even "hum" and it's not an offensive, horrendous noise.

[Sevens]

My buddy started handloading with the Lee breech-lock hand press, against my advice. I believe it's -FAR- too much energy to bother with it, not to mention how awkward it is to use when you have a case charged with powder and a bullet that needs to be seated. He upgraded within weeks of working with it.

Does it work? Oh yes, very well. The kind of thing I'd love to have on a camping trip for some "old school" kind of "bare essentials" exercise. The hand press is MILES better than the silly old "Lee Loader" whack-a-mole relic.

But to go forth and make my ammo with one at home? No way. Also... others may argue that even if you "upgrade later" with a proper bench-mounted press, you can still use the Hand Press. Well, that's being honest, but the truth is that you most likely WON'T, and for the simple reason that every handloader has die settings, his dies remain "set" or "mostly set" for his press and if you take one of your dies set for your bench press and screw it in to a Hand Press, you'll have to change the settings. You won't want to... so you'll either need a whole second set of dies (about the cost of the hand press...) or you'll be re-adjusting die settings.

I began handloading when I was in high school, on a proper bench. When I moved out of state to college as an 18-year old, I took my bench mounted press and screwed it to a length of wood and put it on the corner of my waterbed and sat on it. No load bench, but no overly-difficult hand press.

(and as funny as it may be in this thread... I was making 10mm ammo! 1992, for a Smith & Wesson 1006 that I still have!)

[Crunchy Frog]

I would not fool with a hand press. There are stands available for mounting a regular press if there is no way you could rig a mount that would clamp to a table or countertop.

I handloaded for years without a tumbler. I would wash my brass in soapy water from time to time and dry it in the oven on a low setting. You could also look into an ultrasonic cleaner for indoor use but the machines are not cheap.

I think too many beginners think they need a workshop full of tools to get started. Get a decent press, dies, a good loading manual, and scale and start making ammo. You can figure out what other items you need.

I don't load for 10mm so can't give you a firsthand recommendation for a powder.

[Unclenick]

I have two in different range kits. I use them for load development all the time. My usual routine in finding a pressure limit, is to take sized and primed cases to the range, then charge and seat them at the bench. This way, if I get a pressure sign or my Pressure Trace says I'm at a limit, then I don't have warmer loads to pull down and I can load only as many as I want to try at a particular load level and not have spare "practice" loads left over. No wasted bullets, powder, or primers.

I do own more than one set of dies for a number of the chamberings I load, though.

[SL1]

I usually did not do so for revolver or bolt-action rifle loads that never touched the ground. That worked fine for decades.

But, when I bought an auto-loading pistol that threw my (and other peoples') brass on the ground, I found that it sometimes picked-up grit that did NOT simply wash off. This seemed to happen mostly when cases ejecting fast from factory-level loads hit concrete pads. Hitting grass or even dirt did not seem to be a problem unless somebody stepped on the case before I picked it up.

In order to make sure that I did not scratch my dies or pistol barrels, I found myself running my fingers over each case to check for embedded grit, segregating the affected cases, and then discarding or degritting them with steel wool. Even tumbling them is corn cob media did not seem to get every bit of embedded sand off the cases. Walnt worked a little better, but I still was concerned about scratching things.

Finally, I bought some stainless steel pins and put them in my old Thumblers rock tumbler. THAT cleaned the grit so well that I am confident that no grit remains, and my inspection process is much faster and easier.

So, if you are going to shoot a small number of 10 mm rounds where they are unlikely to become embedded with grit, then tumbling is not worth the effort, but careful inspection for grit still is probably worth the effort (because it only take on piece of grit to make scratches on dies and barrels). But, if you are going to be shooting volumes of rounds, and especially if you are going to be picking-up range brass from other shooters, then I think that a wet tumbler is a good investment for you shooting enjoyment.

SL1

[spacecoast]

Don't let some here discourage you from using the hand press and dippers. I have completed almost 20,000 rounds in the last 4 years using only a Lee hand press and have no immediate plans to upgrade.

You will find that your loads are more accurate if you calibrate your dippers using an inexpensive scale instead of relying on the chart that comes with the dippers. Just take 30 dips, weigh them and divide by 30, converting of course from grams to grains or whatever. You can also make your own custom dippers using empty shell casings.

Good luck, don't hesitate to PM me with any questions.

[Sulaco]

Thanks spacecoast!