Some rifles don't like being cleaned

[Mobuck]

Last week, I swapped the fire control parts on my 5.45x39 AR. I figured while it was in the house and apart, I'd give it a rod and patch cleaning. It had been about a year since it's last such cleaning. I normally just drag a pull-through down the bore a couple of times when I think it might have gotten wet or dusty. This carbine was shooting well(1/2-3/4" 100 yard groups w/Hornady V-max) before the cleaning. I took it out this morning to check the scope and found it throwing 3" groups. Scope was tight and even though I wasn't shooting great, it should have been better. I chased groups around the target for about 15-20 shots and the groups returned to the 1" range. I called it good since the sun was messing with my glasses.
This is the second time I've had this happen with this rifle although the first time wasn't nearly as revealing-that time I thought it was the scope and ended up replacing it. By the time I replaced the optic and the second scope was sighted in-you guessed it, I'd fired about 15-20 shots.
I have an H&R .223 that takes 5-10 shots to "settle in" after a rod and patch cleaning.
My answer is to use the BoreSnake sparingly unless I want to spend the time and ammo to return to the "sweet spot". I don't hold this quirk against the 5.45 since any rifle that shoots as good as it does with the ammo I use most often is hard to dislike.

[rickyrick]

I agree and have experienced similar results as you

I rarely clean a bore... Never scrub them unless something requires it

I wipe down moving parts often, but leave the bores alone now

[AllenJ]

It is a tough thing to not clean a rifle after every range trip when you're brought up to do so but I have finally stopped. Bore Snakes get the moisture out and I don't "clean" my bore until accuracy begins to diminish.

[rickyrick]

Yes it was a tough habit to break... I grew up taught to clean them... Then the army...
I finally broke the cycle about 6-7 years ago...

[AK103K]

I clean my guns every time they are shot, and have never had an issue with accuracy because of it.

Were you shooting the exact same ammo you shot when you were getting the smaller groups? Changes in ammo can bring about quite different results, especially if the gun doesnt like it.

I have an Armalite M15A4(T) that will shoot my reloads that it likes into one little hole most of the time, but if I switch to USGI ball the very next mag, I wont get anything better than 2-3".

Thats been my experience with other guns as well. My old 700V Remington in .308, shooting my reloads, would shoot dime sized groups at 100 yards, on demand. Switch to GI ball, and it was again, 2-3".

Both guns were/are always cleaned after every outing, and as long as Im using the right ammo/load with the gun, accuracy rarely varies.

You say you changed some things out. Is it possible that what you did, could have brought about a change?

[Mobuck]

Yes, I was using the same ammo from the same box, same magazine, same type of rest, no wind, and the only thing changed affecting accuracy was the hammer spring(smoother hammer/sear SHOULD have improved accuracy). In fact, the reason I changed the hammer spring was a suspicion that inadequate primer strikes was causing some POI variation in cold weather.
My "using" carbine gets carried and handled daily. It gets shot a few times per week-if I see a coyote/crow in range. I cover the muzzle with "finger cots" if it's wet but don't clean after every shot.

As a "background" on this carbine: I'd about given up on it as "not worthwhile" after determining it's normal accuracy was 2-3". I'd been cleaning after each range test. In frustration, I changed to a higher X scope in hopes that maybe my vision was part of the problem. When I did so(w/o a cleaning session), accuracy improved considerably and I gave the credit to the 3-9 X scope, not even considering that it might be due to fouling accumulation. After the second experience of accuracy degradation following cleaning, I feel this is likely the norm with this particular carbine.

[USMC 77-81]

I do a thorough field strip and cleaning after every shooting session, damn those Marine corps Drill instructors.

[tdoyka]

my tc encore (mgm barrels 6.5 creedmoor, 22-250ai, and 20 vartarg) get a through scrubbing about every 100-150 rounds. my 444 marlin(tc encore) and my 45-70 handi-rifle and my 1898 springfield armory in 30-40 krag get an oil rag down the barrel until accuracy runs out(they use cast boolits).

its those danged dog faces(army) that trained me, took about 4 or 5 years to de-train me.

[cw308]

Sorry guy's, I'm another clean freak. Also an old war dog Army 68 VN cleaned the black stick ( M16) every chance I could. Now shooting a Rem.700 308 Cal. benchrest shooter, I clean after every range trip. Never effected my group, could it be after a good cleaning & your last thing is running a oiled patch to protect the barrel, next outing your not removing the oil. After I give my rifle a good cleaning I run a patck with Kroil oil, it's a thinner oil & removes easier. Copper build up causes pressure, maybe if the bore is oversized for some reason I could see a build up would make it shoot better, but thats another subject. Till then I'll keep cleaning, checking headspace & OAL to ogive. Be Safe & good Shooting to ALL. Chris

[rickyrick]

I clean bolts and moving parts.... Not too thoroughly

Bores are almost never cleaned.. A patch at most, maybe a pass with a bore snake if available...
Years of technical has caused me to conclude that my time is better spent on something else than the unnecessary task of scrubbing rifle bores...

Nothing wrong with cleaning rifles spotless, it's just not needed

[AK103K]

Years of technical has caused me to conclude that my time is better spent on something else than the unnecessary task of scrubbing rifle bores...

Nothing wrong with cleaning rifles spotless, it's just not needed

Over the years, Ive seen too many examples that are contrary to what was said above.

If Im buying a gun, and its dirty, and and hasnt been maintained/cared for, (and you'd be amazed at how many are like that), the price I offer goes down dramatically.

[rickyrick]

Mine aren't neglected or not maintained...

The bores aren't scrubbed... There's a difference

[AK103K]

Looking down a dirty bore, and/or ending up with crap all over your hands while inspecting it, isnt very awe inspiring when youre looking to buy a gun. Makes it harder to see potential problems as well.

Im always amazed at how many people dont clean their guns, especially when it comes to selling them. They are also usually the same ones, who think you should pay them current retail for it as well.

[603Country]

I clean barrels when accuracy starts to degrade. In the 223, that's about 50 rounds or so. In the 260, it doesn't seem to have problems with a dirty bore. In the 220 Swift, in about 25 or 30 rounds, it's coppered up and needs cleaning.

Usually, I'll just clean with Shooter's Choice and get the carbon fouling and we're good to go, except for the Swift. If the Shooter's Choice cleaning doesn't do the trick, then I'll usually take the copper out. Depends mostly on the individual rifle as to what needs doing and how often. However, I don't have and never had a centerfire rifle that never ever needed cleaning. Never is a very long time...

[tobnpr]

Every rifle ( barrel) is different.
Clean (strip copper) when accuracy degrades. It's the copper fouling that affects accuracy. Bores of match-grade barrels require minimal lay-down of copper to fill-in/smooth out imperfections in the bore. The 15 or 20 shots you mentioned is about typical for a production barrel.

[Boncrayon]

Do you have a chrome-lined bore, or a Chromoloy treated bore? I've read that the chrome-lined bore is easier to clean, but not as accurate as the Chromoly treated bore.

[Mike1]

Somewhat similar experience with cleaning. Took many rounds to get back to before. My 22s are particularly fussy, sometimes taking a box or more to group well again. (I Rarely clean a 22!)

Mike

[Bart B.]

Any barrel that's got a rough and/or pitted surface, from neglect or worn out, will usually shoot better when well fouled and dirty. Better barrels that are smoother and not pitted do need regular cleaning to maintain best accuracy over their lives. The quality of three things will skew the decision to either clean or not clean; bore quality, ammo quality and shooter's marksmanship quality. There is not a single standard and condition of assesing accuracy in the shooting sports that everyone adheres to. Which is why there's championing both extremes of the bore cleaning practices.

When the aggressive bore cleaners, such as Sweets 7.62 and Shooter's Choice, first came on the market, several folks tried them only to learn their barrels shot much worse after cleaning with them. That stuff cleaned out everything except good bore metal. The result was a very rough finish. Bullets bearing surfaces got scraped off unbalancing them. The rough bore needed a dozen to a hundered rounds shot through it before bullet material filled in those rough spots smoothing up the surface. When that happened, no bullet material was scraped off of them and they were not unbalanced.

One person cleaned his barrel with Shooter's Choice, then sued them as his barrel shot so poorly afterwords. 'Twas proven before it went to court that his barrel was so worn out and had a very eroded throat which, when filled in and smoothed up by shooting several bullets through it, its accuracy was acceptable. He had neglected to clean his barrel properly and eventually wised up about barrel care and bore cleaners.

[gman3]

I clean mine when accuracy starts to fall off, no sooner as much as I may want too. If I have one that won't shoot, that I think I may want to sell you...Then I will obviously make sure that it is Spic & Span clean before you see it.