Administering aid to a downed perp in the home.

Dannavy85 · July 2, 2007, 02:43 PM

Let's say you've gone through a confrontation with an armed intruder in the home and you've center massed him onto your living room floor.

You've now retreated to a defensable place to protect your family and the intruder moans and begs for help. You've told the 911 operator to send medical assistance but are you still obligated to try and tend to the wounded intruder in any way and should you?

I've been told that you are not obligated to aid someone who's broken into your home under armed intent, that you are obligated only to inform the person to place dirrect pressure over their wounds and that emergency response is coming.

I don't think I want to take the chance of falling for a ruse.

Redneckrepairs · July 2, 2007, 02:49 PM

If i have to shoot him i wont go near him myself , i wont stop others from rendering first aid , but I wont . I never want someone even speculating i didnt shoot him enough and had to move in and kill him by hand under the guise of aid .

Mister_Dinky · July 2, 2007, 02:52 PM

There are those who believe that a dead perp found behind Kmart won't have relatives that can sue or a politically ambitious prosecutor who can prosecute you into poverty.
FWIW
YMMV

Manedwolf · July 2, 2007, 02:53 PM

Nope. That's the paramedics' job. All I'd do is call the police, kick their weapon out of their reach if they have one, and stay in a safe location with family behind.

You don't know if they're fooling and are going to attack you, or might have a disease. Paramedics have gloves and safety glasses on. You don't. Lots of crackheads have AIDS and other nasty bloodborne pathogens you don't want to be anywhere near, that's all too easy to have flung into your eye.

Lurper · July 2, 2007, 03:02 PM

In most states you are not required to. Tactically it is not a good idea. Also, in many states you are protected from civil liability if your shooting was justified. I would not want to be within arms reach of anyone who I shot because I felt my life was in danger. I would have no problems sleeping even knowing that he would have lived if I had rendered aid but died because I did not.

newarcher · July 2, 2007, 03:05 PM

Heck no!

You never know whether he has a hidden knife in his sleeve or even a pair of matched Ruger pistols....haven't you seen DESPERADO?!?

If his hollering and screaming bothered me, I would just shoot him again!

Actually, I would probably taunt him a little seeing as how the adrenaline would be surging. You break into my house, I will do my best to kill you dead and if I did go over to administer aid, I might jam something into the wound and stir it just based solely on the fact that I know how badly my life is going to change as a result of his actions.

New

threegun · July 2, 2007, 03:19 PM

Offer improper medical aid and you get sued for that. No way I'm going anywhere near that guy.

Matt19 · July 2, 2007, 03:23 PM

If for some reason you decide to try to help the criminal medically after you shoot him, secure him first, then search him. Of course the police will search him again before the medics work on him.

Kentucky Deer Hunter · July 2, 2007, 03:38 PM

The least you do, the better off you are. (Whether it's shooting the BG or giving medical aid.) People sue, and people win. I am a licensed EMT in Ky and there is nothing that says even I would be required to give medical help. You should leave as much to a third party (Police, EMT, etc...) as humanly possible. A third party remains covered under the good samaritan laws and in most cases cannot be sued (unless it is extreme malpractice). However, all the perp would have to do is say that after I shot him, I came over and taunted him or hurt him further even though he tried to make me stop but could not physically get away due to his injury. They will rule that I caused emotional pain and I would be paying for the rest of my life.

Unless you paralyzed him or gave him brain damage, he would still be able to move and grab a hidden weapon as you tried to help him. A person that is DRT (Dead Right There) does not talk, moan, or ask for help. A live person is still a threat.

Samurai · July 2, 2007, 04:16 PM

Quote:

People sue, and people win.

Not in Tennessee, anymore... heh, heh, heh!

Here, if the perp's family brings suit, not only does the case get thrown out, but YOU get to collect costs and attorney's fees for defending the case! (Thank you, Govenor Bredesen!)

Ok. So you've shot the perp in your living room. He's bleeding on the carpet. Now what? Up here on Good Ole' RockyTop, the appropriate course of action is to sit back and wait on the police who shall be arrivin' directly to clean that mess up off of your living room floor! If it really bugs you, you could ask the perp to please roll himself out into the kitchen so he won't bleed on the good carpet. But, you just have to make that call on your own. It will depend alot on rate of exhanguination, distance to the kitchen, etc.

rantingredneck · July 2, 2007, 04:40 PM

Nope.

Fall back, protect family. Call 911. Let them sort it out. I'm not gonna let him take me with him with a desperation last move. Also not going to leave my family undefended in case he's got friends nearby. Predators (even human ones) sometimes hunt in packs.

rantingredneck · July 2, 2007, 04:42 PM

Quote:

You never know whether he has a hidden knife in his sleeve or even a pair of matched Ruger pistols....haven't you seen DESPERADO?!?

By the way. I want another P90 and a set of those springloaded thingys.

Only in Hollywood will a P90 fit up your sleeve. I know because I've tried.

spctim11 · July 2, 2007, 04:43 PM

Should have double tapped from the begining.

Hemicuda · July 2, 2007, 07:09 PM

The perp broke into my house while I was home, right?

HOW did he survive 2 loads of 3" double-ought buckshot to the boiler-room, and one to the cranial region, all from less than 30 feet?

IF he survives that, I'll apologize to superman, and hope he ain't too pissed at me!

VUPDblue · July 2, 2007, 08:32 PM

Don't help him and certainly don't take your eyes off him. Keep him in your sights until help arrives. At this point, reloading would be pertinent.

bdcbbq · July 2, 2007, 08:40 PM

I suppose one could grab the rubbing alcohol to pour on the wounds to help sterilize the wound. Or get a cactus burner to cauterize the bleeding.

All kidding aside, I would tend to let them lie there, and maybe toss them a towel to stop the bleeding.

Doug.38PR · July 2, 2007, 09:45 PM

I might help him by putting him out of his misery or drag him outside so he doesn't bleed all over my floor and furniture

But seriously, I probably would NOT approach them.

Wildalaska · July 2, 2007, 10:31 PM

Quote:

There are those who believe that a dead perp found behind Kmart won't have relatives that can sue or a politically ambitious prosecutor who can prosecute you into poverty.

There are those of us who understand that such conduct is criminal.:barf:

WildneverstopsAlaska

Technosavant · July 3, 2007, 12:45 PM

Quote:

There are those of us who understand that such conduct is criminal.

No kidding. That's just wrong. I can't believe anybody would do that.

You're not supposed to litter. Leave the trash in a DUMPSTER. Geez, have SOME respect for the environment!

Just kidding.

Seriously, though, it depends on a number of factors, but I would tend to call paramedics and leave him be, mainly for concern about blood-borne diseases. Short of putting a compress on the wound to slow the bleeding, there isn't much you could do, and if the person is conscious and able to move (even just a bit), you're placing yourself in danger. No telling if he has a knife or something stashed somewhere, or even if he'll go Mike Tyson on you and try to bite.

Manedwolf · July 3, 2007, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Short of putting a compress on the wound to slow the bleeding, there isn't much you could do

Not even that. Suppose your gun's slide bit you and you're too much into adrenaline to notice. They get blood on that wound. Or they flail and throw blood into your eye...congratulations, you may now have "teh AIDS".

I wouldn't go near them.

easyG · July 3, 2007, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Should have double tapped from the begining.

+1!

I would prefer to shoot him til he's dead.
Better to have only one version of "the facts" in court than two.

Manedwolf · July 3, 2007, 01:00 PM

Annnnnd...as soon as the ballistics experts investigate powder residue and determine the bullet's trajectory, you'd be up on charges for not having shot defensively, but having shot the perp from an angle while they were already down. Self-defense does not equal following up with murder.

You think they'd not know?

easyG · July 3, 2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Annnnnd...as soon as the ballistics experts investigate powder residue and determine the bullet's trajectory, you'd be up on charges for not having shot defensively, but having shot the perp from an angle while they were already down. Self-defense does not equal following up with murder.

Just because a person is down that does not mean that they are not still a deadly threat.

Suppose the perp was on the ground and still pointing his pistol at you?
Would you not shoot simply because he was on the ground?

jfrey123 · July 3, 2007, 04:04 PM

I'm not a doctor. If he's got enough left in him to yell and beg for help, he probably has enough to crawl his happy ass out my door and get help from someone else.

workinwifdakids · July 3, 2007, 06:31 PM

Quote:

HOW did he survive 2 loads of 3" double-ought buckshot to the boiler-room, and one to the cranial region, all from less than 30 feet?

And after having lit off 3 shotgun rounds in my hallway, how exactly am I supposed to hear the soft moaning of a dying man through a barricaded bedroom door? Hell, I'd be fairly surprised to hear a screaming SWAT team crashing through my living room window at that point.

My plan is to STOP the threat, and then barricade myself inside a room my kids and wife while she's on the phone to 911. Therefore, there's no reasonable expectation of hearing anything. I have no criticism for anyone whose plan differs from mine, but I think mine solves the problem the OP proposes.

July 2, 2007, 02:43 PM	#1
Dannavy85 Junior member Join Date: June 27, 2007 Posts: 46	Administering aid to a downed perp in the home. Let's say you've gone through a confrontation with an armed intruder in the home and you've center massed him onto your living room floor. You've now retreated to a defensable place to protect your family and the intruder moans and begs for help. You've told the 911 operator to send medical assistance but are you still obligated to try and tend to the wounded intruder in any way and should you? I've been told that you are not obligated to aid someone who's broken into your home under armed intent, that you are obligated only to inform the person to place dirrect pressure over their wounds and that emergency response is coming. I don't think I want to take the chance of falling for a ruse.

July 2, 2007, 03:23 PM	#8
Matt19 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 1999 Posts: 315	If for some reason you decide to try to help the criminal medically after you shoot him, secure him first, then search him. Of course the police will search him again before the medics work on him. __________________ In life, you'll have your back up against the wall many times. You might as well get used to it.-Bear Bryant.

July 2, 2007, 03:38 PM	#9
Kentucky Deer Hunter Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2006 Location: Central Kentucky Posts: 110	The least you do, the better off you are. (Whether it's shooting the BG or giving medical aid.) People sue, and people win. I am a licensed EMT in Ky and there is nothing that says even I would be required to give medical help. You should leave as much to a third party (Police, EMT, etc...) as humanly possible. A third party remains covered under the good samaritan laws and in most cases cannot be sued (unless it is extreme malpractice). However, all the perp would have to do is say that after I shot him, I came over and taunted him or hurt him further even though he tried to make me stop but could not physically get away due to his injury. They will rule that I caused emotional pain and I would be paying for the rest of my life. Unless you paralyzed him or gave him brain damage, he would still be able to move and grab a hidden weapon as you tried to help him. A person that is DRT (Dead Right There) does not talk, moan, or ask for help. A live person is still a threat. __________________ It's all fun and games until a piece of hot brass goes down your shirt... Imagine if every outdoorsman taught the sport to 2 young people -----> *What are you doing to save our sport?*

July 2, 2007, 07:09 PM	#14
Hemicuda Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,757	The perp broke into my house while I was home, right? HOW did he survive 2 loads of 3" double-ought buckshot to the boiler-room, and one to the cranial region, all from less than 30 feet? IF he survives that, I'll apologize to superman, and hope he ain't too pissed at me! __________________ Hemi. gun and car collector. Rare cars, and rarer guns.

July 2, 2007, 08:32 PM	#15
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,981	Don't help him and certainly don't take your eyes off him. Keep him in your sights until help arrives. At this point, reloading would be pertinent. __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

July 2, 2007, 02:49 PM	#2
Redneckrepairs Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2006 Posts: 666	If i have to shoot him i wont go near him myself , i wont stop others from rendering first aid , but I wont . I never want someone even speculating i didnt shoot him enough and had to move in and kill him by hand under the guise of aid .

July 2, 2007, 02:52 PM	#3
Mister_Dinky Junior member Join Date: July 18, 2002 Location: In one of the 50 Posts: 191	There are those who believe that a dead perp found behind Kmart won't have relatives that can sue or a politically ambitious prosecutor who can prosecute you into poverty. FWIW YMMV

July 2, 2007, 02:53 PM	#4
Manedwolf Junior member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Posts: 3,266	Nope. That's the paramedics' job. All I'd do is call the police, kick their weapon out of their reach if they have one, and stay in a safe location with family behind. You don't know if they're fooling and are going to attack you, or might have a disease. Paramedics have gloves and safety glasses on. You don't. Lots of crackheads have AIDS and other nasty bloodborne pathogens you don't want to be anywhere near, that's all too easy to have flung into your eye.

July 2, 2007, 03:02 PM	#5
Lurper Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2006 Posts: 943	In most states you are not required to. Tactically it is not a good idea. Also, in many states you are protected from civil liability if your shooting was justified. I would not want to be within arms reach of anyone who I shot because I felt my life was in danger. I would have no problems sleeping even knowing that he would have lived if I had rendered aid but died because I did not.

July 2, 2007, 03:05 PM	#6
newarcher Junior member Join Date: May 19, 2007 Posts: 108	Heck no! You never know whether he has a hidden knife in his sleeve or even a pair of matched Ruger pistols....haven't you seen DESPERADO?!? If his hollering and screaming bothered me, I would just shoot him again! Actually, I would probably taunt him a little seeing as how the adrenaline would be surging. You break into my house, I will do my best to kill you dead and if I did go over to administer aid, I might jam something into the wound and stir it just based solely on the fact that I know how badly my life is going to change as a result of his actions. New

July 2, 2007, 03:19 PM	#7
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	Offer improper medical aid and you get sued for that. No way I'm going anywhere near that guy.

July 2, 2007, 04:40 PM	#11
rantingredneck Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 4,728	Nope. Fall back, protect family. Call 911. Let them sort it out. I'm not gonna let him take me with him with a desperation last move. Also not going to leave my family undefended in case he's got friends nearby. Predators (even human ones) sometimes hunt in packs.

July 2, 2007, 04:43 PM	#13
spctim11 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2006 Location: SE Louisiana Posts: 210	Should have double tapped from the begining.

July 2, 2007, 08:40 PM	#16
bdcbbq Member Join Date: March 28, 2007 Location: Wherever there's fried chicken or BBQ Posts: 75	I suppose one could grab the rubbing alcohol to pour on the wounds to help sterilize the wound. Or get a cactus burner to cauterize the bleeding. All kidding aside, I would tend to let them lie there, and maybe toss them a towel to stop the bleeding.

July 2, 2007, 09:45 PM	#17
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	I might help him by putting him out of his misery or drag him outside so he doesn't bleed all over my floor and furniture But seriously, I probably would NOT approach them.

July 3, 2007, 01:00 PM	#22
Manedwolf Junior member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Posts: 3,266	Annnnnd...as soon as the ballistics experts investigate powder residue and determine the bullet's trajectory, you'd be up on charges for not having shot defensively, but having shot the perp from an angle while they were already down. Self-defense does not equal following up with murder. You think they'd not know?

July 3, 2007, 04:04 PM	#24
jfrey123 Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2006 Location: Reno, NV. Posts: 1,026	I'm not a doctor. If he's got enough left in him to yell and beg for help, he probably has enough to crawl his happy ass out my door and get help from someone else. __________________ Rock out with your Glock out!