Testing Handloaded SD Rounds

[ckpj99]

I started reloading for .38 Special a few months ago. At the moment, I've worked up a target load with Trail Boss and some flat point Berry's plated bullets. It's light recoiling and cheap to make, and I definitely know the load is save and standard pressure (you know, Trail Boss and all that)

I'm trying to work up a more powerful round with Hornady Lead SWCHP. However, I'd still like it to be standard pressure, so I can actually practice with it in my older revolvers.

I'm using published load data for my powder, but I know that my loading practices can affect pressure. My crimp and primers for example.

How do I determine if I'm going overpressure. Do I work backward from chrony numbers? How is that done? Is there some other way to do it?

I ran a few rounds through my Model 10 with the "max" published powder load. It supposedly has a muzzle velocity of 880 fps and a pressure of 16000 CUP. From what I understand, this is about 2000 CUP short of max pressure for .38 special. Will my crimp, seating depth, primer and other loading factors alter my pressure by that much?

Thanks for your input. And I know that a lot of people swear against loading their own SD ammo. I plan to carry factory ammo, but having a couple hundred rounds of decent "hot-ish" SWCHP (plus a proven load worked up) would be beneficial in really bad situation.

[longspurr]

One of the Gurus of reloading used the method of very carefully measuring the case head of factory rounds of the caliber he was working with. Then using the same cases he worked up loads that gave the same case head expansion as the factory round. There are better-more expensive ways to do this. But this method has worked reasonably well.

Ken Waters wrote many articles & a couple of books about reloading. They are well worth reading. Below is a link to one of the best reloading sources on the web.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/home

pet loads by ken waters is available on Amazon

As for - SD ammo - I think that is an over used buss word. Anything from a 22 short on up, that is in your hand when you NEED it is self defense ammo. A nice sized rock has been used as self defense in earlier days.

[ckpj99]

Thanks longspurr. That's a great idea.

As for the SD ammo, I tend to agree. But what's the fun in reloading if you're not going to experiment. Also, I think my Trail Boss loads are so light, a person or animal could just dodge them. :-)

[jamaica]

My rule: Stay within published load data for the cartridge. In many years of reloading, I have never had a problem doing this. I have no way of measuring pressure. There are some signs of too much pressure. Most reloading manuals cover this to some extent. Start low and work up.

[salvadore]

This is a cast bullet similar your swchp swaged you want to experiment with except the gc of course. Load data from Lyman's 4th edition Cast Bullet Handbook allowed 4grs of Bullseye with this 358156 155 gr solid @858fps. Since I was using a soft alloy the HP bullet weighs the same. Lyman claims 1600 CUP and is potentially the most accurate load listed.

That said, Alliant allows 3.5 grains with speers 158gr LSWC @818fps with no pressure data included.

The above bullet was shot into gallon jugs of water from my Colt Cobra snubby, I don't remember how many were penetrated.

[Nick_C_S]

As Salvadore has displayed, you can make effective LSWCHP rounds that are well within 38Spl SAAMI spec. I too only use factory rounds in my SD guns (for civil lawsuit reasons, mostly). But I too work up rounds of my own SD ammo for recoil practice, and - well - just because.

Your loading technique(s) will affect pressure. But if you just do things within normal practice, and nothing "radical," it's unlikely you'll create an over pressure situation. If the SAAMI pressure spec for 38 Spl is 18,000 CUP (I don't know the spec off the top of my head), it's not like your gun will blow up at 18,001 CUP. Most modern firearms have a little headroom built in. As far as signs of pressure, it's difficult to see with 38 Spl because it's a low-pressure round to begin with. All the more reason to stay within published data.

I've been loading for 30 years and have been through many loading "phases;" including some that weren't very smart. At this time of writing, I no longer see any reason to "hot rod" rounds. I think 38 Spl - with proper shot placement, as always - is an effective round. There's no reason to load it (or any other chambering) beyond its design parameters. If one feels the need, one should choose a firearm with more punch (357, 44, whatever).

[Sevens]

I've been loading for 30 years and have been through many loading "phases;" including some that weren't very smart. At this time of writing, I no longer see any reason to "hot rod" rounds. I think 38 Spl - with proper shot placement, as always - is an effective round. There's no reason to load it (or any other chambering) beyond its design parameters. If one feels the need, one should choose a firearm with more punch (357, 44, whatever).

I'm really NOT looking to start an argument, but this is an oft-used phrase and I can't get on board with it. If it's a personal preference or a closely held personal guide line, I take zero issue with it. I have nothing but respect for folks that have solid ideas backed with solid reasoning and they stick to it firmly. They have my full respect & backing.

I do take a bit of issue if it seems or appears to be offered as a rule that others should adopt also. And I truly do NOT mean this personally-- but I can't even count the number of times it always gets trotted out that it's a bad idea to run something to it's (safe) limit when a much better/smarter/rational choice is to simply pick up a whole different gun in a "larger" chambering.

That's simply not the RIGHT answer for everyone's uses, and certainly not for my needs. In fact, I already -have- that other (bigger) gun but it's not the goal of my loading on that day to move to a different gun. It is my goal to do what I am capable of doing (safely, properly) in this one.

And the easiest and most common reason I do it is to replicate some of the harshest factory defense ammo on the market. .327 Federal is an example. When you look at the performance of the factory loaded 115gr Gold Dot in this caliber, it's astounding and it takes careful, measured load development if you hope to replicate what it's capable of. And simply putting the .327 Federal away and grabbing a .357 Magnum does not accomplish that task if the goal is to replicate the "feel" of recoil, blast and concussion of the 115gr Gold Dot load in .327 Federal.

Again, not at all personal, but the idea that one might simply "move to a bigger caliber" is not a catch-all answer that accomplishes the goal every time. At the load bench, we have the ability to explore the full range of each chambering, and if we stick to proper, safe and time-tested methods and employ our checks & balances, we can do exactly that with -much- success.

[Nick_C_S]

No argument started Sevens.

Your statement is a fair one.

I was speaking from my viewpoint; and others may see things differently. And that's okay. As far as my going to "something with more punch" statement goes, I probably should have worded it in a better way. A way that didn't leave the impression that I was trying to make decisions for other people. The decision to load hot rod rounds or not is purely an individual one. And it's certainly not my place to tell others how to load. I didn't mean to leave that impression.

One of the best things about "rolling our own" is that we have the freedom to load as we see fit - on an individual basis. It's a freedom that we all share and appreciate. I wouldn't want it any other way.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I'm using published load data for my powder, but I know that my loading practices can affect pressure. My crimp and primers for example.

That's why you start at starting loads and work your way to max listed loads, while watching for pressure signs along the way.

Unexpectedly high velocity, no increase (or even a decrease) in velocity with an increased load, flatten primers, sticky extraction, undue recoil, etc, etc.

[SSA]

16,000 cup or 18,000 cup is nothing for a Model 10. Shoot all you want.

[salvadore]

That's why you start at starting loads and work your way to max listed loads, while watching for pressure signs along the way.

This is good advice that I have never taken except for cast rifle loads. I think it's because I grew up with Skeeter and Elmer. Plus my early reloading manuals have some pretty scary data. I tend to think modern manuals have a litigious factor built in, but I could be wrong.

[Nick_C_S]

I tend to think modern manuals have a litigious factor built in, but I could be wrong.

I doubt you're wrong.

[Mike / Tx]

Sevens, I think all ol Nick was pointing out was the fact that you don't need to go above or push published data for a particular caliber, just to get more out of it. If you feel you HAVE to do so then you might consider something else.

I think we can all agree that even with a 38 Spl, one can go from mouse fart load to just below 357 magnum territory. That said, that might not always be the right thing to do, depending on what all of the other contributing factors are. Where one of us who has been loading 25+ or more years has been through several or more instances where we worked up to and saw high pressure signs, and know basically what to look for. Someone who is just getting their feet wet might not have a clue. Not only that but the firearm it's self might be a huge factor as well. I don't have an issue loading up hot 38's for my GP100's but I wouldn't dare shoot these type loads in my Colt Army Special. I tend to lean towards the mouse end of the spectrum for it.

Back to the OP now, the Waters book does have a good writeup in it on the 38SPL I agree, but it wasn't as good as some others I have seen. This isn't to say there isn't a wealth of information there to learn from though it is a great overall source for sure.

The older "Police " loads used a heavy 200gr SWC for their bullets. This is detailed in the Waters writings. However for a good all around load where you can get some decent velocity for the caliber, as well as have plenty of weight for penetration it's hard to beat a good 140 - 160'ish grain lead SWC. The best part is there is a TON of load data out there for this range of bullets, and some great commercial cast bullets to use with them.

Hope this helps.

[ckpj99]

I have loaded up to (what appears to be) the max published load with my powder/bullet combo, 5.9 grains. Recoil was a little amplified over factory loads, but there were no signs of overpressure.

When it comes to shooting and SD, I think shot placement and bullet design are far more important than sheer FPS and bullet weight. The Hornady SWCHP in 158 grain may not be a Gold Dot, but it's light years beyond a FMJ round.

I'll be shooting these in my carry gun. A Model 36, no dash, in nickel from the early 70s with a three inch barrel. I'm testing the loads in my Model 10 because I know it can take more.

I'm sure the Model 36 is strong, but I've read over and over again that any Model 10 made after they started calling them Model 10s is plenty strong enough for occasional +P use. I have not read the same things about the Model 36, so I don't want to push it.

[44 AMP]

It has been discussed a lot, but these days, the general opinion is that it is prudent to use only factory ammo for self defense.

Load up rounds that match the factory stuff for recoil (and if you can get them to shoot to the same point of aim as factory, even better), and use them for practice and training, but when you carry, or when the gun goes into "nightstand ready" mode, put factory ammo in it.

DOing that simply reduces the potential legal angles of attack should you wind up in court.

I tend to think modern manuals have a litigious factor built in,

Quite possible, I have noticed modern manuals often list max loads that are less than what was published in "the old days".

They explain this with "well, we have better ways to measure the pressure today". So they toss out old load levels that are "too hot" because today we can measure the pressure more accurately. This amuses me, because the pressure limits that they kept were measured the old way!

This leads to a general downloading of loads, which is always going to be "safe" but leaves us with stuff that if we go to the allowable "max" isn't as much as what it used to be.

Let me give an example (numbers used only for illustration)

you have a round that generates 16,000 psi (as you measure it), and in regular guns works fine, but starts giving trouble at pressure above that -the usual, sticky extraction, flattened primers, etc.)

SO you decide that 16K is the max safe working pressure. 50-60 years later, hundred of thousands (if not more) of guns in that caliber, tens of millions of rounds fired, everything always working just the way you expect it to.

Then we find a more accurate means of pressure measurement, do some testing and oh my gosh, that 16K load is actually 18.5K! WOW! That's UNSAFE!

Do they say, ok, the way we measure it now, the new limit is 18.5? No. They keep 16 as the limit. (that way, no matter what system you measure with, you're safe). Time goes on, and things get loaded to the limit..16...measured in the new "accurate" format.

OK, I'm being a bit outlandish to illustrate a point, but I hope I've made a point...

[WESHOOT2]

I might suggest HS6 under that 158g lead

[Sevens]

Fact is... handloaders like us will never know the pressures we are experiencing. We dimply don't have the equipment. Software can try to estimate or emulate what we are doing with math, but it won't account for all the variables... of which there are MANY.

Know however, that the gun makers (especially the large, reputable, good ones) are testing all of their guns with OVER LOADS. They call 'em "proof loads" and the guns handle those loads or the guns don't get shipped.

That doesn't mean we should be going nuts with our handloads...
But it does mean that the gun manufacturer also gives us a safe buffer to work with.

So we should do as we have been doing through all the years and all the manuals written on the subject of handloading: we should follow the cardinal rules and look for signs of pressure. Also, we should be asking ourselves what we want/need from the loads, and make the sensible decisions on that.

It's been my opinion for a very long time that if you follow safe, accepted and long-standing practices, and you have a process that keeps your work in check at the bench... you aren't at much risk for any serious problems in this ballgame.

But some people are better suited to this activity than others. I have some friends that are fantastic people, but I would be worried about the ammo they might attempt to make if they got in to this hobby. Simply put, it's the way they approach some things that makes them (perhaps, IMO) not well-suited to handloading.

[ckpj99]

I agree 44AMP. I don't think I'll carry my handloads day to day. However, you hear all these preppers talking about the need to have a stockpile of ammo in case hostile aliens land in Ohio or the militant Bulgarian anarchist party invades.

I don't necessarily subscribe to the "prepper" lifestyle, but I don't think having a reserve of ammo is a bad idea. I'm never going to NEED to produce target loads quickly. So as long as I have components, I essentially have a stockpile of target ammo.

However, if for some crazy reason, I NEED several hundred rounds of ammo for defense (you know, zombie attack, mutant crocodiles, sharknado), I'd rather have several hundred rounds of handloaded "SD" ammo instead of several hundred rounds of FMJ. As much as I'd like to just buy 300 or 400 rounds of nice Buffalo Bore or Hornady Critical Defense, it's just not financially feasible.

And so long as load my SD ammo to a safe pressure, I can shoot through as much of it as I would like to keep the stockpile fresh.

I'm not saying this is totally reasonable, but it was the reason for the post and the idea behind developing an SD handload.

[ckpj99]

And just to poke holes in my theory, I have an SKS and I always have quite a bit of factory ammo laying around for it since I don't reload for it. If Sharknado comes, it would probably be the first thing I grab.

[44 AMP]

ok, fine, but you have to admit that factory 7.62x39mm (with any bullet) is just a little bit different than .38 Special.


I understand your point about having a quantity of SD level ammo available, it makes sense. After all, when the alien mutant ninja zombie bikers do attack, you are going to be a bit busy to sit down at your loading bench.

Also, when/if that happens, the bothersome legal aspects of using handloads for self defense are moot.

For SD in the real world (as it currently exists), use factory, and keep the reloads for practice. If it all drops in the pot, use whatever you got.

We don't do SHTF threads here on TFL, so before we drift that way any more, lets agree to be done with that particular scenario, OK?
(otherwise, thread goes bye bye)