New to Muzzle loaders, questions

mohr308 · December 14, 2014, 08:06 PM

I'm looking at purchasing a new muzzle loader this spring. Multiple things come to mind which I would like to know. I would like to know what's the fastest to clean and load? How long of a range are these effective and accurate? I understand accuracy depends on your load work up. Will the longer the barrel give me more pressure and an increase in accuracy/range? Is there a reliable brand/model that fits this criteria for less than $425. Stainless steel or blued barrel?

Pahoo · December 14, 2014, 08:24 PM

You are really leaving this quite open and subject to one's prejudices. By now, you have looked at enough catalogs to make a reasonable start. The first step is to define your preference between a SideLock and MML. You will find that ease of cleaning does not matter all that much. Whatever you choose, there are always trade-offs. The SideLocks touch my heart but some folks don't care about that and that's fine. Barrel length does make a difference but most folks don't care about that either. .....

Again, at any given point in time, we only have two choices so let's start with the generation you want; SideLocks or MML's??

Be Safe !!!

mohr308 · December 14, 2014, 08:31 PM

Don't know the difference between the two!

Hawg · December 14, 2014, 08:47 PM

Sidelocks are traditional with the lockplate and hammer mounted to the side of the stock. Modern are bolt actions or break open. Sidelocks use a percussion cap or flint for ignition. Modern uses a 209 shotgun primer. Traditional cant be easily scoped. Modern usually comes with a scope mounted.,

mohr308 · December 14, 2014, 08:55 PM

Thanks. MML it is, got that part cleared up. Now the rest!

rodwhaincamo · December 14, 2014, 09:24 PM

Modern in-lines are exempt from many states' black powder/traditional seasons. If this is your reasoning you may want to check the regs before you move in any direction.

The range is dependent on your choice of projectile and the powder charge mostly. And of course your ability.

What caliber(s) are you considering? And what do you intend on hunting?

There's a fellow who paper patches lead cast .500 S&W bullets (Lee 440 grn) and kills elk out past 200 yds with a percussion sidelock. He can shoot much further than that though.

stagpanther · December 14, 2014, 10:42 PM

I'm new to BP also--you've come to the right place--I got great help here.

Chuck Dye · December 15, 2014, 06:18 AM

Get the Lyman Black Powder Handbook.

Pahoo · December 15, 2014, 11:05 AM

As biased or prejudice as I am toward SideLocks, I would recommend one of the many MML's available. I'm not familiar with your background so excuse me if I take too much for granted. The choices are many and pricing is right. On SideLocks, the choices are getting less and pricing is higher. Currently CVA is looking better than it use to. The book that Chuck Dye is recommending, is a great source of information. There are many great sources out there but this one is written by Sam Fadala and he knows his stuff. .....

On ease or speed of loading, this will come fast on either as you develop your own loading technique. MML's are not much easier to clean but all effected parts, are easily accessible. ....

Be Safe !!!

mohr308 · December 15, 2014, 12:26 PM

So my intent is to use this ML for whitetail deer. I live in NY and always miss the ML season because I dont own one, might buy One today. So what I'm getting from this is that a MML is less exspensive and just as easy to clean as sidelock. I want to be able to reach out to 200yds, so maybe a smaller projectile may offer me a flatter shot. I would prefer to use loose powder instead of pellets, from what I've heard better load tuning and better burn. I reload for my rifle so it should come easy. If I can score one under $300 that would be great!

**4V50 Gary** · December 15, 2014, 12:46 PM

If you're looking for range, go with a Civil War minie rifle. There's a reason why round ball rifles were replaced in the world's military. Since they don't need patches and are undersized, they're faster to load. Because they're conical and expand to fit the bore, they reach out farther than the average round ball. The average minie rifle was good to 500 yards. The disadvantage is that they require musket caps (slightly more expensive than No. 10 or No. 11 caps) and they use a lot more lead (485-535 grains as opposed to round balls).

rodwhaincamo · December 15, 2014, 02:36 PM

Idahoron is the fellow who hunts with a sidelock using a Lee 440 grn paper patched bullet for elk. He keeps his initial shots to about 200 yds, but practices out much further in case an additional shot is needed. He's good.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...r-elk-and-deer

Lyman makes a stainless Deerstalker with a 1:48" twist and shallow grooves meant for sabots/conicals, as well as the Great Plains Hunter with a 1:32" twist and shallow grooves (blued). These run $400-500

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/m...lker-rifle.php

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/m...ins-hunter.php

You can get them about $100 cheaper elsewhere.

I have a blued Deerstalker (deeper grooves for ball) and really like it. It's a handy size with a nice weight. I'm wanting a stainless barrel for it to top with a Malcolm scope for hunting fields.

hartcreek · December 16, 2014, 03:02 AM

It makes no sence to even come on here and ask if you have not checked out your states regs.

darkgael · December 16, 2014, 03:35 AM

Quote:

The legal firearm for this season is a muzzleloading rifle or pistol (including smoothbore muzzleloaders) loaded through the muzzle, shooting a single projectile and having a bore of .44 inches or larger. Double-barreled muzzleloaders and percussion cap revolvers are not legal during the special muzzleloading season. If you hunt with a single-shot muzzleloading pistol, you must have a New York State Pistol License.

NY regs.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · December 16, 2014, 11:06 AM

Seldom mentioned. But you may want to check around and see which style of rifle offers the best trade or resale price. (traditional verses inline) We all make mistakes in our purchasing. So its best to know these things just in case. As far as a two hundred yard rifle. You won't get the accuracy needed for those long shots on NY deer using a simple patched ball. As Gary 4V50 said prior. Maybe a 1851 model or something that excels at shooting mini or sabot projectiles is the way to go {which includes most inlines}.

As far as Idaho Ron and his Hot Rod Renegade. Neither his T/C rifle or it's aftermarket LRH fast twist Green Mtn barrel are manufactured. <(Kaput!!) If wanting a rifle like his. No doubt its going to be expensive to say the least.

Quote:

I would like to know what's the fastest to clean and load?

All muzzle loaders require a barrel swab occasionally. But there is a synthetic powder marketed that helps reduce the need too so I've read.

Quote:

How long of a range are these effective and accurate?

Traditional style (store bought) rifle: w/ patched ball. 125 yards is certainly within its limits.
Some inlines: w/scope or peep. 200 plus is attainable. As would be the 1851 Gray 4V50 brought to your attention earlier.

Quote:

Will the longer the barrel give me more pressure and an increase in accuracy/range?

Pressure Yes. Accuracy/range: may or may not. >All weaponry has limits.<

Quote:

Is there a reliable brand/model that fits this criteria for less than $425. Stainless steel or blued barrel?

Can't say. (I haven't shopped for a rifle in quite a few years)
"Time for you to go shop though."
Try them all for shoulder or upper arm fit and how good their sights line up to your eyes for those occasional hurried shots. When you find that one particular rifle that does both. You'll know that's the one you've been looking for.

maillemaker · December 16, 2014, 12:20 PM

Looks to me from the above quote of the regs like you have to use a muzzle loader for hunting in New York, not an inline.

Stainless steel is always going to be more maintenance friendly than blued steel. There is no finish to lose, and rust is far less of an issue. If you get a scratch somewhere, judicious use of a file and/or some sandpaper can buff it right out. Expect to pay a premium for stainless.

You got some ranges for the patched round ball vs. bullet above. A minie ball or similar bullet will give you more options range-wise. You can shoot a minie ball at 100 yards but you may not be able to shoot a PRB at 200. So I'd go with something with a twist amenable to minie balls, myself.

Steve

rodwhaincamo · December 16, 2014, 12:56 PM

My Deerstalker does quite well with the 320 grn Lee REAL and a wad with a 1:48" twist. I've yet to really work with it, but with 70 grns of 3F Olde Eynsford I had 2 nearly touching at 50 yds. It requires a wad though as the first was over a foot left and quite low and had keyholed. Those are the only I shot as I was curious what recoil was like (I was thinking 45-70 Gov't).

Seeing how well it did I bought a mold!

According to a calculator this ought to do quite well to 150 yds point blank (I give a max of ~4-5" above/below 0). It can do more.

TimSr · December 16, 2014, 02:19 PM

If moderns are leagl in NY, which they seem to be, and you are mainly intersted in a functional hutning tool that works well, I would walk into a Walmart and buy one the $175 CVA models off the shelf. They may not be as smooth, pretty, and elegant as other choices, but they shoot well, and function reliably. Then if you decide you want something fancier down the line, or the nostalgia of a traditional, and have a better idea of what you want, and more experience with which to choose, go for it then. Its not like you're going to take a huge beating on reselling a $175 gun.

I'd stick with .50 caliber because thats what will have the greatest selection and availability of components in any store.

By the way, nobody mentioned, but most moderns come with a wrench for a removable breech plg which not only makes cleaning easier, but allows you to unload it without firing it.

December 14, 2014, 08:06 PM	#1
mohr308 Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2012 Location: Western New York Posts: 466	New to Muzzle loaders, questions I'm looking at purchasing a new muzzle loader this spring. Multiple things come to mind which I would like to know. I would like to know what's the fastest to clean and load? How long of a range are these effective and accurate? I understand accuracy depends on your load work up. Will the longer the barrel give me more pressure and an increase in accuracy/range? Is there a reliable brand/model that fits this criteria for less than $425. Stainless steel or blued barrel? __________________ Lock and load, the zombies (democrats) are coming (to take your guns)!

December 14, 2014, 08:24 PM	#2
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Two choices at one time You are really leaving this quite open and subject to one's prejudices. By now, you have looked at enough catalogs to make a reasonable start. The first step is to define your preference between a SideLock and MML. You will find that ease of cleaning does not matter all that much. Whatever you choose, there are always trade-offs. The SideLocks touch my heart but some folks don't care about that and that's fine. Barrel length does make a difference but most folks don't care about that either. ..... Again, at any given point in time, we only have two choices so let's start with the generation you want; SideLocks or MML's?? Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

December 14, 2014, 08:31 PM	#3
mohr308 Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2012 Location: Western New York Posts: 466	Don't know the difference between the two! __________________ Lock and load, the zombies (democrats) are coming (to take your guns)!

December 14, 2014, 08:55 PM	#5
mohr308 Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2012 Location: Western New York Posts: 466	Thanks. MML it is, got that part cleared up. Now the rest! __________________ Lock and load, the zombies (democrats) are coming (to take your guns)!

December 15, 2014, 06:18 AM	#8
Chuck Dye Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2002 Location: Oregon-The wet side. Posts: 949	Get the Lyman Black Powder Handbook. __________________ Gee, I'd love to see your data!

December 14, 2014, 08:47 PM	#4
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	Sidelocks are traditional with the lockplate and hammer mounted to the side of the stock. Modern are bolt actions or break open. Sidelocks use a percussion cap or flint for ignition. Modern uses a 209 shotgun primer. Traditional cant be easily scoped. Modern usually comes with a scope mounted.,

December 14, 2014, 09:24 PM	#6
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	Modern in-lines are exempt from many states' black powder/traditional seasons. If this is your reasoning you may want to check the regs before you move in any direction. The range is dependent on your choice of projectile and the powder charge mostly. And of course your ability. What caliber(s) are you considering? And what do you intend on hunting? There's a fellow who paper patches lead cast .500 S&W bullets (Lee 440 grn) and kills elk out past 200 yds with a percussion sidelock. He can shoot much further than that though.

December 14, 2014, 10:42 PM	#7
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	I'm new to BP also--you've come to the right place--I got great help here.

December 15, 2014, 11:05 AM	#9
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Recomending an MML As biased or prejudice as I am toward SideLocks, I would recommend one of the many MML's available. I'm not familiar with your background so excuse me if I take too much for granted. The choices are many and pricing is right. On SideLocks, the choices are getting less and pricing is higher. Currently CVA is looking better than it use to. The book that Chuck Dye is recommending, is a great source of information. There are many great sources out there but this one is written by Sam Fadala and he knows his stuff. ..... On ease or speed of loading, this will come fast on either as you develop your own loading technique. MML's are not much easier to clean but all effected parts, are easily accessible. .... Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

December 15, 2014, 12:26 PM	#10
mohr308 Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2012 Location: Western New York Posts: 466	So my intent is to use this ML for whitetail deer. I live in NY and always miss the ML season because I dont own one, might buy One today. So what I'm getting from this is that a MML is less exspensive and just as easy to clean as sidelock. I want to be able to reach out to 200yds, so maybe a smaller projectile may offer me a flatter shot. I would prefer to use loose powder instead of pellets, from what I've heard better load tuning and better burn. I reload for my rifle so it should come easy. If I can score one under $300 that would be great! __________________ Lock and load, the zombies (democrats) are coming (to take your guns)!

December 15, 2014, 12:46 PM	#11
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	If you're looking for range, go with a Civil War minie rifle. There's a reason why round ball rifles were replaced in the world's military. Since they don't need patches and are undersized, they're faster to load. Because they're conical and expand to fit the bore, they reach out farther than the average round ball. The average minie rifle was good to 500 yards. The disadvantage is that they require musket caps (slightly more expensive than No. 10 or No. 11 caps) and they use a lot more lead (485-535 grains as opposed to round balls). __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

December 15, 2014, 02:36 PM	#12
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	Idahoron is the fellow who hunts with a sidelock using a Lee 440 grn paper patched bullet for elk. He keeps his initial shots to about 200 yds, but practices out much further in case an additional shot is needed. He's good. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...r-elk-and-deer Lyman makes a stainless Deerstalker with a 1:48" twist and shallow grooves meant for sabots/conicals, as well as the Great Plains Hunter with a 1:32" twist and shallow grooves (blued). These run $400-500 http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/m...lker-rifle.php http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/m...ins-hunter.php You can get them about $100 cheaper elsewhere. I have a blued Deerstalker (deeper grooves for ball) and really like it. It's a handy size with a nice weight. I'm wanting a stainless barrel for it to top with a Malcolm scope for hunting fields.

December 16, 2014, 03:02 AM	#13
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	Check youtr state regs It makes no sence to even come on here and ask if you have not checked out your states regs. Last edited by hartcreek; December 16, 2014 at 03:03 AM. Reason: typo

December 16, 2014, 12:20 PM	#16
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	Looks to me from the above quote of the regs like you have to use a muzzle loader for hunting in New York, not an inline. Stainless steel is always going to be more maintenance friendly than blued steel. There is no finish to lose, and rust is far less of an issue. If you get a scratch somewhere, judicious use of a file and/or some sandpaper can buff it right out. Expect to pay a premium for stainless. You got some ranges for the patched round ball vs. bullet above. A minie ball or similar bullet will give you more options range-wise. You can shoot a minie ball at 100 yards but you may not be able to shoot a PRB at 200. So I'd go with something with a twist amenable to minie balls, myself. Steve

December 16, 2014, 12:56 PM	#17
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	My Deerstalker does quite well with the 320 grn Lee REAL and a wad with a 1:48" twist. I've yet to really work with it, but with 70 grns of 3F Olde Eynsford I had 2 nearly touching at 50 yds. It requires a wad though as the first was over a foot left and quite low and had keyholed. Those are the only I shot as I was curious what recoil was like (I was thinking 45-70 Gov't). Seeing how well it did I bought a mold! According to a calculator this ought to do quite well to 150 yds point blank (I give a max of ~4-5" above/below 0). It can do more.

December 16, 2014, 02:19 PM	#18
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	If moderns are leagl in NY, which they seem to be, and you are mainly intersted in a functional hutning tool that works well, I would walk into a Walmart and buy one the $175 CVA models off the shelf. They may not be as smooth, pretty, and elegant as other choices, but they shoot well, and function reliably. Then if you decide you want something fancier down the line, or the nostalgia of a traditional, and have a better idea of what you want, and more experience with which to choose, go for it then. Its not like you're going to take a huge beating on reselling a $175 gun. I'd stick with .50 caliber because thats what will have the greatest selection and availability of components in any store. By the way, nobody mentioned, but most moderns come with a wrench for a removable breech plg which not only makes cleaning easier, but allows you to unload it without firing it.