Newb Sizing question

techrecruit · June 17, 2013, 06:57 PM

I'm new to the hobby and am working through prepping several thousand rounds of 308 Win brass. About 1k Hornady / few thousand lake city mil brass, and a few hundred brass I shot that I purchased new.

I sorted everything, tumbled, and then went to deprime and had major issues using my hornady dies to deprime and size. The military brass was really tough so I ended up buying a lee universal depriming die and it worked like a charm and then I swaged all the military brass with a Dillon swager.

Moving on from that I went on to neck size all the brass with a lee collet neck sizing die and here are the results / issues: (btw - this is the first time I've reloading rifle rounds so i'm learning as I go and reading up.

The brass I purchased new and shot in my gun = sized perfectly and when I hand press the bullet into the casing it goes in but I have to use a decent amount of force (comfortably snug).

The once fired hornady brass I purchased = When I size with the lee collet neck die no matter how I adjust it the case mouth doesn't expand enough where I can push the bullet tip into the casing. The brass just seems really really tough.

Some new Winchester 308 Brass I bought = the case mouth just doesn't expand enough to hardly get the bullet into the case no matter how many adjustments to the lee collet die I make. Feels like really hard brass like the hornady brass.

So my questions: Is it okay to not have the hornady or new win brass neck sized enough to hand push in the bullet?

Also i'm using a Hornady Lock n load press with the lee collet die and it really doesn't seem to make a difference when I adjust the die in the press when it comes to sizing the mouth of the case. I've watched youtube tutorials and I've made adjustments like they say to but it seems like my die is ALL the way screwed in to get the mouth opened on the case and for some brands of casings it's still not enough but I cant adjust the die any further into the press.

Any thoughts?

steve4102 · June 18, 2013, 12:14 AM

The once fired brass you purchased should be Full Length sized and not neck sized. Only brass that has been fired in your gun should be neck sized.

The case mouth should be small enough so you cannot insert a bullet by hand. Place the bullet on the top of the case and hold it with you finger tips, then guide it into the die slowly and remove fingers after bullet enters the seating die.

You should check case capacity on your different brands of brass. Your Military stuff may have less and your loads may have to be adjusted accordingly.

jwrowland77 · June 18, 2013, 05:03 AM

Did you chamfer the inside of the neck with like a vld tool or anything? Like said, you shouldn't be able to simply push a bullet inside the case. I'd be a little edgy on using those cases just due to neck tension.

Just place the bullet on top and hold it there and guide the bullet into seater. It'll seat just fine once inside. I didn't see any mention, but for each new headstamp, you'll want to do a different workup just due to case capacity.

Travelin' Man · June 18, 2013, 06:23 AM

Like Steve said, for at least the first time (especially with the military brass) you need to full length resize and if you are firing these rounds out of an semi-auto you will always want to full length resize preferably with a set of small base dies that take the dimensions back down to minimum SAMMI specs.

Unless you are running compressed charges you shouldn't need to worry that much about the case capacity difference between military brass and commercial brass but if you are shooting for accuracy you will definitely want to sort your brass.

When neck sizing pay particular attention to inspecting the brass before each reload and looking for cracks or splits in the necks as this is where the brass will be thinning after multiple reloads.

You never stated as such but are you using a good case lube? Even with a carbide full length resizing die you need to use lube as in the case of carbide rifle dies the carbide only allows longer die life unlike most carbide pistol dies which will allow you to resize without the need for lube.

With regards to the difficulty in seating bullets, it hasn't been asked but it also hasn't been mentioned, do you have the expander ball properly adjusted on your sizing die? If you have then the difference in the "feel" when seating bullets in different manufacturers cases may be to one brand being annealed (softened, visible by dark staining at the case shoulder) and another not. Most military brass these days is factory annealed while most commercial brass isn't.

I hope this helps a little!

Richard

F. Guffey · June 18, 2013, 07:07 AM

“The brass I purchased new and shot in my gun = sized perfectly and when I hand press the bullet into the casing it goes in but I have to use a decent amount of force (comfortably snug)”

“(comfortably snug)” I call comfortably snug bullet hold, I am the fan of bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get. Then there are the ‘new brass’ cases, they worked. If you were measuring before and again after and or if you were using a comparator or a system for comparing cases before firing and again after firing you would know what will chamber (like the new brass cases) and if your sized cases did not chamber, you would know why, I have dies, lots of dies, I never recommend someone purchase a Lee collet die until they have experience with the full length sizer die.

Back to, I have dies, lots of dies, there is no way someone can talk fast enough to talk me into purchasing a Lee collet die, but! if I did purchase one I would not spend the rest of my like talking about using it.

F. Guffey

techrecruit · June 18, 2013, 04:55 PM

First of all thank you for the responses and taking the time to give your thoughts.
Side note I’m reloading this to shoot out of a CZ 750 Bolt rifle and I do care about accuracy but won’t be competing nor get furious if my loads are not perfect while in the learning stage of reloading.

Steve4102 – All the brass is trimmed to the correct length.
Jwrowland77 – no I haven’t chamfered the mouth of the brass as they all look nice and smooth.
Travelin’Man – I’m using imperial sizing die wax for body of case and imperial application media which looks like graphite balls for the neck.
F.Guffey – thank you for input.
It just seems like when I run a case through my hornady full length sizing die it doesn’t really do anything.

snuffy · June 18, 2013, 06:43 PM

techrecruit, You have a lot to learn! But of course you know that. If you ever can actually push the bullet, (bullet, not bullet tip), into any brass case with your fingers, something is VERY WRONG!. Bullet neck tension, also called bullet pull is all that holds the bullet in the assembled round of ammo. I has to be enough to keep the bullet in place until it's ready to be fired. It also acts to hold the bullet until the powder has a chance to ignite completely.

The lee collet die (CD) does not require any lubrication. It's made to squeeze the neck of the case against a mandrel to size the neck enough to hold the bullet. No amount of force will make it size smaller than the size of that mandrel. To decrease the inside diameter on the neck or in other words to increase bullet pull, you must reduce---make smaller the mandrel of the lee CD. You can do this by spinning the mandrel in a drill motor, holding some Emory paper against it to take a tiny amount of steel off the outside of that mandrel.

Chamfer tools come in two basic designs. The standard makes a 45 degree angle on the inside edge of the case mouth. Lyman makes a chamfer tool they call the VLD, stands for very low drag. It makes a longer, more gradual taper to the case mouth, results in a 22 degree taper. The VLD tool is all I use. The old 45 degree tool results in some copper being peeled off most bullets.

All brass should be inside chamfered. Even NEW BRASS! It keeps the mouth from scratching the bullet as it seated.

stubbicatt · June 20, 2013, 09:35 PM

OP. The CZ750 is the 550 with a fancy stock. Both are made with cold hammer forged barrels, the chambers too. They are the only chambers I have ever seen with a zero headspace. Resizing cases fired in these rifles requires much less force than brass fired in other makes, which may account for your experience with the Hornady dies.

I disagree with the contributor who says

Quote:

Unless you are running compressed charges you shouldn't need to worry that much about the case capacity difference between military brass and commercial brass but if you are shooting for accuracy you will definitely want to sort your brass.

--This is dangerous. Don't do it. You must adjust your loads whenever you begin with new or strange cases.

You might go to Sinclair International's webpage and watch their video series to familiarize yourself with the procedure.

--Nice rifle! Have fun, be safe.

F. Guffey · June 21, 2013, 10:39 AM

“They are the only chambers I have ever seen with a zero headspace”

Then there is SAAMI says,

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...Winchester.pdf

There is a minimum and a maximum as in 1.630 to 1.640, seems to me if the head space was .000 (zero) there would be no place and or room for the case, so I will assume the rifle has a short chamber, or the length of the chamber from the datum of .400 to the bolt face is the same length as a minimum length case, that would leave me to describe the rifle as having a chamber that is the same length as a minimum length/full length sized case.

In that situation, if I wanted room and or a difference between the length of the case and length of the chamber I would be required to place a feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and case head to a case for a short chamber, how short? Again, depends on the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face.

F. Guffey

So I assume we are talking about a chamber that is the same length as a minimum length/full length sized case, the difference in length is zero (.000), thart does not mean the head space is zero, head space is the length of the chamber, not the difference between the length of the case and chamber when measured from the usual places.

stubbicatt · June 21, 2013, 01:38 PM

F. Guffey. You got that right. Cases fired in that chamber when measured with my comparator are at or below the datum line compared to new, unfired brass.

I guess I didn't say that clearly enough.

Yep.

June 17, 2013, 06:57 PM	#1
techrecruit Junior Member Join Date: January 21, 2013 Posts: 3	Newb Sizing question I'm new to the hobby and am working through prepping several thousand rounds of 308 Win brass. About 1k Hornady / few thousand lake city mil brass, and a few hundred brass I shot that I purchased new. I sorted everything, tumbled, and then went to deprime and had major issues using my hornady dies to deprime and size. The military brass was really tough so I ended up buying a lee universal depriming die and it worked like a charm and then I swaged all the military brass with a Dillon swager. Moving on from that I went on to neck size all the brass with a lee collet neck sizing die and here are the results / issues: (btw - this is the first time I've reloading rifle rounds so i'm learning as I go and reading up. The brass I purchased new and shot in my gun = sized perfectly and when I hand press the bullet into the casing it goes in but I have to use a decent amount of force (comfortably snug). The once fired hornady brass I purchased = When I size with the lee collet neck die no matter how I adjust it the case mouth doesn't expand enough where I can push the bullet tip into the casing. The brass just seems really really tough. Some new Winchester 308 Brass I bought = the case mouth just doesn't expand enough to hardly get the bullet into the case no matter how many adjustments to the lee collet die I make. Feels like really hard brass like the hornady brass. So my questions: Is it okay to not have the hornady or new win brass neck sized enough to hand push in the bullet? Also i'm using a Hornady Lock n load press with the lee collet die and it really doesn't seem to make a difference when I adjust the die in the press when it comes to sizing the mouth of the case. I've watched youtube tutorials and I've made adjustments like they say to but it seems like my die is ALL the way screwed in to get the mouth opened on the case and for some brands of casings it's still not enough but I cant adjust the die any further into the press. Any thoughts?

June 18, 2013, 05:03 AM	#3
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	Newb Sizing question Did you chamfer the inside of the neck with like a vld tool or anything? Like said, you shouldn't be able to simply push a bullet inside the case. I'd be a little edgy on using those cases just due to neck tension. Just place the bullet on top and hold it there and guide the bullet into seater. It'll seat just fine once inside. I didn't see any mention, but for each new headstamp, you'll want to do a different workup just due to case capacity.

June 18, 2013, 06:23 AM	#4
Travelin' Man Member Join Date: March 3, 2009 Location: Fox Lake, Illinois Posts: 47	Like Steve said, for at least the first time (especially with the military brass) you need to full length resize and if you are firing these rounds out of an semi-auto you will always want to full length resize preferably with a set of small base dies that take the dimensions back down to minimum SAMMI specs. Unless you are running compressed charges you shouldn't need to worry that much about the case capacity difference between military brass and commercial brass but if you are shooting for accuracy you will definitely want to sort your brass. When neck sizing pay particular attention to inspecting the brass before each reload and looking for cracks or splits in the necks as this is where the brass will be thinning after multiple reloads. You never stated as such but are you using a good case lube? Even with a carbide full length resizing die you need to use lube as in the case of carbide rifle dies the carbide only allows longer die life unlike most carbide pistol dies which will allow you to resize without the need for lube. With regards to the difficulty in seating bullets, it hasn't been asked but it also hasn't been mentioned, do you have the expander ball properly adjusted on your sizing die? If you have then the difference in the "feel" when seating bullets in different manufacturers cases may be to one brand being annealed (softened, visible by dark staining at the case shoulder) and another not. Most military brass these days is factory annealed while most commercial brass isn't. I hope this helps a little! Richard __________________ NRA Life Member - ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

June 18, 2013, 06:43 PM	#7
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	techrecruit, You have a lot to learn! But of course you know that. If you ever can actually push the bullet, (bullet, not bullet tip), into any brass case with your fingers, something is VERY WRONG!. Bullet neck tension, also called bullet pull is all that holds the bullet in the assembled round of ammo. I has to be enough to keep the bullet in place until it's ready to be fired. It also acts to hold the bullet until the powder has a chance to ignite completely. The lee collet die (CD) does not require any lubrication. It's made to squeeze the neck of the case against a mandrel to size the neck enough to hold the bullet. No amount of force will make it size smaller than the size of that mandrel. To decrease the inside diameter on the neck or in other words to increase bullet pull, you must reduce---make smaller the mandrel of the lee CD. You can do this by spinning the mandrel in a drill motor, holding some Emory paper against it to take a tiny amount of steel off the outside of that mandrel. Chamfer tools come in two basic designs. The standard makes a 45 degree angle on the inside edge of the case mouth. Lyman makes a chamfer tool they call the VLD, stands for very low drag. It makes a longer, more gradual taper to the case mouth, results in a 22 degree taper. The VLD tool is all I use. The old 45 degree tool results in some copper being peeled off most bullets. All brass should be inside chamfered. Even NEW BRASS! It keeps the mouth from scratching the bullet as it seated. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

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June 18, 2013, 12:14 AM	#2
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,952	The once fired brass you purchased should be Full Length sized and not neck sized. Only brass that has been fired in your gun should be neck sized. The case mouth should be small enough so you cannot insert a bullet by hand. Place the bullet on the top of the case and hold it with you finger tips, then guide it into the die slowly and remove fingers after bullet enters the seating die. You should check case capacity on your different brands of brass. Your Military stuff may have less and your loads may have to be adjusted accordingly.

June 18, 2013, 07:07 AM	#5
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	“The brass I purchased new and shot in my gun = sized perfectly and when I hand press the bullet into the casing it goes in but I have to use a decent amount of force (comfortably snug)” “(comfortably snug)” I call comfortably snug bullet hold, I am the fan of bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get. Then there are the ‘new brass’ cases, they worked. If you were measuring before and again after and or if you were using a comparator or a system for comparing cases before firing and again after firing you would know what will chamber (like the new brass cases) and if your sized cases did not chamber, you would know why, I have dies, lots of dies, I never recommend someone purchase a Lee collet die until they have experience with the full length sizer die. Back to, I have dies, lots of dies, there is no way someone can talk fast enough to talk me into purchasing a Lee collet die, but! if I did purchase one I would not spend the rest of my like talking about using it. F. Guffey

June 18, 2013, 04:55 PM	#6
techrecruit Junior Member Join Date: January 21, 2013 Posts: 3	First of all thank you for the responses and taking the time to give your thoughts. Side note I’m reloading this to shoot out of a CZ 750 Bolt rifle and I do care about accuracy but won’t be competing nor get furious if my loads are not perfect while in the learning stage of reloading. Steve4102 – All the brass is trimmed to the correct length. Jwrowland77 – no I haven’t chamfered the mouth of the brass as they all look nice and smooth. Travelin’Man – I’m using imperial sizing die wax for body of case and imperial application media which looks like graphite balls for the neck. F.Guffey – thank you for input. It just seems like when I run a case through my hornady full length sizing die it doesn’t really do anything.

June 21, 2013, 10:39 AM	#9
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	“They are the only chambers I have ever seen with a zero headspace” Then there is SAAMI says, http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...Winchester.pdf There is a minimum and a maximum as in 1.630 to 1.640, seems to me if the head space was .000 (zero) there would be no place and or room for the case, so I will assume the rifle has a short chamber, or the length of the chamber from the datum of .400 to the bolt face is the same length as a minimum length case, that would leave me to describe the rifle as having a chamber that is the same length as a minimum length/full length sized case. In that situation, if I wanted room and or a difference between the length of the case and length of the chamber I would be required to place a feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and case head to a case for a short chamber, how short? Again, depends on the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face. F. Guffey So I assume we are talking about a chamber that is the same length as a minimum length/full length sized case, the difference in length is zero (.000), thart does not mean the head space is zero, head space is the length of the chamber, not the difference between the length of the case and chamber when measured from the usual places.

June 21, 2013, 01:38 PM	#10
stubbicatt Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Posts: 1,707	F. Guffey. You got that right. Cases fired in that chamber when measured with my comparator are at or below the datum line compared to new, unfired brass. I guess I didn't say that clearly enough. Yep.