July 4, 2014, 01:52 PM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 30, 2009
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 7,172
|
I don't have any statistics, nor would I know where to find them, but, given the relative condition of most 03-A3s that I have seen, I doubt very many of them ever saw front line service. I've seen a couple photos of Marines in the Pacific using them, but that's about it; Most of them seem to have other weapons, mostly Garands and carbines. 03A3s that look like they have seen some use are usually from VFW halls, ROTC or reserve guard units.
What is said about Swiss rifles never having seen battle action can also be said about Swedish Mausers; Sweden was another neutral country that escaped invasion by the Germans, mainly because, much like the Swiss, they were playing both sides of the fence. Other than with a few volunteer troops that served in Finland against the Russians, the Swedish Mauser was never "battle proven" either. I think the insane prices we see today are the result of what I call "collectormania." Everything is a "collector's item" nowadays. US population has doubled since my childhood, and there are more people interested in these things. I have stated before that there is a growing demand and a dwindling finite supply of these items. Last edited by gyvel; July 4, 2014 at 02:00 PM. |
July 4, 2014, 02:56 PM | #27 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
|
interesting, I was under the impression that the beech was phased in much earlier than 41.
I couldn't find any segregated lists... a lot of that is in swiss too, which I unfortunately am unable to speaky. Quote:
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin |
|
July 4, 2014, 04:01 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 18, 2014
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,320
|
7.5x55 swiss is not really an obsolete cartridge. Swiss Co-Axial machine guns still use the round.
Hypothetically, it would have been better than a 1903 in war, in my opinion, due the the straight pull bolt which allows for greater rate of fire, detachable magazine, 6+1 capacity, and the fact that they are largely in part more accurate. I just don't think, in World War 2, that the Springfield would have been a very practical weapon other than by snipers. That's just my opinion As for the stock, a European Beech is a very sturdy wood.
__________________
Proud owner of three (four-ish) pieces of history! K-31, Mosin-Nagant M91/30, M24/47 Mauser, Norinco SKS. "You might as well appeal against a thunderstorm..." William Tecumseh Sherman |
July 4, 2014, 05:23 PM | #29 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
|
Quote:
the detachable magazine is only a real advantage if the swiss would have issued spare magazines with their rifles, which I could be mistaken but I believe they did not and since swiss chargers only held 5 rounds, the 6 round mag is almost as big of an irritant as it was an advantage. I suppose that I have to give you the point for 7.5 still being used but it is still a very uncommon cartridge on this side of the pond. Quote:
Japanese used Arisakas, bolt action with a straight bolt handle, 5 round capacity. leaf sights or peeps(poorly mounted to rear of barrel) Germany used K98 mausers, bent or straight bolt handles(depending on manufacture) and 5 round capacity. sights were leaf sights. Brits, bolt actions, bent bolts, 10 round magazines, peep sights(mounted to rear of receiver, most effective placement of peeps) Russia used the mosin nagant, 5 round mag, straight bolt handles, leaf sights, all very crudely designed for the war production rifles. Italy used Carcanos, 6 shot en bloc clips, leaf sights, straight bolt handles, when you compare the US Springfield it was perfectly on par with the service rifles of the time: bent bolt, 5 round capacity, leaf sights(the A3 replaced this with a very effective rear peep sight on the rear of the receiver). the 1903A3 has nearly as much of a reputation as the K31 for accuracy.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin |
||
July 4, 2014, 06:28 PM | #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 18, 2014
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,320
|
You have to do the same with the Springfield. The bolt throw is that car back.
The Swiss issued 6 round charger clips. The detachable magazine is just an easier way to load the magazine if your runout of chargers or another soldier falls you can take the magazine from his rifle. It wouldn't have been practical because the US had the M1 and M1 Carbine. They were put into service before the war started (exclusion being M1 carbine).
__________________
Proud owner of three (four-ish) pieces of history! K-31, Mosin-Nagant M91/30, M24/47 Mauser, Norinco SKS. "You might as well appeal against a thunderstorm..." William Tecumseh Sherman |
July 4, 2014, 07:18 PM | #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 24, 2009
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 391
|
Of course you can cycle a k31 bolt without moving your head.
You just have to have the correct head position, that being up rather high with your mouth wide open.
__________________
www.swissproductsllc.com An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit, he set in de bushes, he watch an' he wait, lay low an' he don' say nuffin' |
July 4, 2014, 07:19 PM | #32 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
|
lol
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin |
July 4, 2014, 07:24 PM | #33 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 17, 2012
Posts: 1,085
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Attached is that beast with the accessories I've accumulated so far (for some reason standard Energa practice grenades fit the Swiss launcher profile). The fitted drum is a 63 round DPM conversion setup I'm still debugging --looks totes menacing, though TCB
__________________
"I don't believe that the men of the distant past were any wiser than we are today. But it does seem that their science and technology were able to accomplish much grander things." -- Alex Rosewater |
|||||||
July 4, 2014, 07:27 PM | #34 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
|
Quote:
the M1 carbine was only issued to non-frontline units like artillery and logistics.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin |
|
July 4, 2014, 07:38 PM | #35 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 24, 2009
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 391
|
I wouldn't buy a St.marie scope mount. The Swiss Products mount beats the heck out of it.
__________________
www.swissproductsllc.com An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit, he set in de bushes, he watch an' he wait, lay low an' he don' say nuffin' |
July 4, 2014, 08:33 PM | #36 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 24, 2009
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 391
|
Nobody going to take the bait??
__________________
www.swissproductsllc.com An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit, he set in de bushes, he watch an' he wait, lay low an' he don' say nuffin' |
July 4, 2014, 08:37 PM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 18, 2014
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,320
|
Well, Swiss+Swiss can only equal good things. Don't even know what a Saint Marie is.
__________________
Proud owner of three (four-ish) pieces of history! K-31, Mosin-Nagant M91/30, M24/47 Mauser, Norinco SKS. "You might as well appeal against a thunderstorm..." William Tecumseh Sherman |
July 4, 2014, 08:40 PM | #38 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 24, 2009
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 391
|
For the past 17 years there's always been that confusion. The St.Marie mount is the Swiss Products mount. St.marie is the name of the Family that owns it.
__________________
www.swissproductsllc.com An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit, he set in de bushes, he watch an' he wait, lay low an' he don' say nuffin' |
July 4, 2014, 09:12 PM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 18, 2014
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,320
|
Well, that was quite stupid of me to say, I apologize.
__________________
Proud owner of three (four-ish) pieces of history! K-31, Mosin-Nagant M91/30, M24/47 Mauser, Norinco SKS. "You might as well appeal against a thunderstorm..." William Tecumseh Sherman |
July 4, 2014, 09:22 PM | #40 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 24, 2009
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 391
|
No need for an apology. For the past 10 years we've been trying to disconnect those names. It began as St.Marie the first year, and then when we became a LLC and having distributors we did our best to untangle those two names, but to this day we still hear our product line referred to as " a St.Marie Diopter, or a St.Marie Brake", etc.
We finally gave up trying to correct people.
__________________
www.swissproductsllc.com An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit, he set in de bushes, he watch an' he wait, lay low an' he don' say nuffin' |
July 4, 2014, 09:54 PM | #41 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 17, 2012
Posts: 1,085
|
Yeah, and in a couple years we'll have a Dodge Barracuda . I always figured St. Marie was a maker/owner of a specific model of mount, which sounds close enough to the reality (in terms of defining a specific product). Good to know Swiss Products is the one go-to shop, anymore
TCB
__________________
"I don't believe that the men of the distant past were any wiser than we are today. But it does seem that their science and technology were able to accomplish much grander things." -- Alex Rosewater |
July 4, 2014, 09:55 PM | #42 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 18, 2014
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,320
|
Well, if I did want to modify/sporterize my beloved K-31, I would most likely choose you guys. I don't do much research in aftermarket stuff, as I try to keep my rifles milspec.
__________________
Proud owner of three (four-ish) pieces of history! K-31, Mosin-Nagant M91/30, M24/47 Mauser, Norinco SKS. "You might as well appeal against a thunderstorm..." William Tecumseh Sherman |
July 4, 2014, 11:10 PM | #43 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 24, 2009
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 391
|
The great majority of the entire line is non-invasive. No changes to the issue rifle are required.
__________________
www.swissproductsllc.com An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit, he set in de bushes, he watch an' he wait, lay low an' he don' say nuffin' |
July 5, 2014, 12:03 AM | #44 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 18, 2014
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,320
|
I know, I just want to keep my rifle the way it is currently. I've only fired 6 rounds through it and it grouped pretty well at 50 yards.
__________________
Proud owner of three (four-ish) pieces of history! K-31, Mosin-Nagant M91/30, M24/47 Mauser, Norinco SKS. "You might as well appeal against a thunderstorm..." William Tecumseh Sherman |
July 5, 2014, 02:25 AM | #45 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm done beating the dead horse though, time to get back to the original intent of this thread. I see quite a few recommendations for K31 over scoping an existing rifle.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin |
|||
July 5, 2014, 03:06 AM | #46 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 30, 2009
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 7,172
|
Quote:
|
|
July 5, 2014, 04:51 AM | #47 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 18, 2014
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,320
|
Tahunua, arguments aside, i think you would really enjoy a K-31. Considering how accurate they are with irons, I can only imagine what a scope would do. Good luck with your future purchase (maybe you'll get a good a deal as I got ).
__________________
Proud owner of three (four-ish) pieces of history! K-31, Mosin-Nagant M91/30, M24/47 Mauser, Norinco SKS. "You might as well appeal against a thunderstorm..." William Tecumseh Sherman |
July 5, 2014, 12:19 PM | #48 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 17, 2012
Posts: 1,085
|
Quote:
Quote:
TCB
__________________
"I don't believe that the men of the distant past were any wiser than we are today. But it does seem that their science and technology were able to accomplish much grander things." -- Alex Rosewater |
||
July 5, 2014, 12:41 PM | #49 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 3,963
|
Comparing the US Springfield to the Swiss K31 is ignoring the background. The US rifle was designed for mass production in the standard American industrial system. It was perfect for gearing up to a ten-million man Army. Absent the Enfield contracts with the British in 1917, we would have produced Switzerland's annual output of K31s (then K11s) in a single day or week.
The Swiss K31, was not designed for large-scale mass production. The Swiss could produce thousands of rifles in a year, that was sufficient to arm their entire civilian population if needed, and keep the factory open. Which one is better? It's Ford v. Chevy. Both were obsolete in the mid-1930s, as a general-issue military arm. |
July 9, 2014, 01:24 AM | #50 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 30, 2002
Location: The Republic of Texas
Posts: 392
|
Walking the Walk
.
Even if your form is perfect -- Hitting your spot at long range, and especially shooting little cluster groups, is all about dealing with one issue. W.I.N.D . . . . And sometimes m..i.r….A…G..E I don't give a damn if a person has a rifle that can shoot through the same hole in an indoor range from a machine rest. Conditions can make a fool out of an armchair sniper's "consistent" small group braggadocio. Try actually doing some shooting at 4 or 500 yards sometime and you will immediately see what I'm talking about. Even at 250 with much condition at all it's tough nuts on tight groups. Except for the really experienced and highly trained rifleman, taking shots at game over 300 yards is totally unethical. I thought I would throw that out there while I was thinking about it. Tinker with this program on the advanced setting and see what just a light wind variation does to trajectory -- http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-re...ics-calculator End of sermon. Do I hear an Amen ? . |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|