March 17, 2014, 03:23 PM | #51 |
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I am sure he did a lot of research, but all writers tend to fall into traps on details, often on stuff they are absolutely sure they know so they don't need to check.
The 9mm story, as far as I can determine, is kind of interesting. Luger offered the 7.65 to the German armed services (naturally). The Army requested a caliber change to 9mm. Now the 7.65 was supported ("headspaced") on its shoulder, like the rifle cartridges of the era. And Luger wanted to keep the same size base to avoid having to redesign and retool for the pistol. But when he tried to use a shoulder type case for 9mm, the shoulder was far too small to provide good case support. (There are some 9mm cases with tiny shoulders in collections , so this seems to be true.) So how to support the case? Finally, Luger hit on the idea of supporting the case on the case mouth, which allowed him to satisfy the Army's request for a 9mm bullet in a case with the base the same size as the 7.65mm. But that meant the case was tapered, one drawback of the 9mm for feeding; a straight case would have been better. So why not a straight case? Probably because the Army said 9mm, not 9.1mm or 9.2mm, and Luger wanted to give the Army what it asked for. Jim |
March 17, 2014, 11:00 PM | #52 |
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I've heard the 9mm Luger described as .30 Luger with shoulder blown out, but the case OAL and extractor groove are different, so clearly there's some other story behind it?
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March 18, 2014, 05:18 AM | #53 | |||
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According to Datig, p. 75-77, the 9mm was introduced with the Model of 1902 (following the Model of 1900 in 7.65) as an attempt to get the German government to adopt the Luger. Remember, the following is from 1955:
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Then he says this: Quote:
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Last edited by spacecoast; March 18, 2014 at 06:13 PM. |
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March 18, 2014, 06:32 AM | #54 |
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Interesting discussion. I have been shooting my P.08 more these days. It is a re-arsenalled 1941 BYF that came back through East Germany or Russia. It operates flawlessly, and is very accurate. It shows almost no wear. I'd like to think it was captured from a German officer at the eastern front, which is probably a likely scenario.
Recently, I brought it out after years of not shooting it to show a friend what Lugers were all about. I first shot my FMJ reloads through it, then some factory bulk FMJ. It performed perfectly. Then we tried a mix of flat point reloads, and factory hollow points. It again performed perfectly. I know it was designed for FMJ, but mine operates with any 9MM I use. I have thought about carrying it recently, and may do so.
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April 16, 2014, 05:33 PM | #55 |
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I'm pretty much in the same place as the OP.
I have a PO8 DKM Luger manufactured in 1911 that has been in my family since prior to WWII…rarely shot,a bedside gun and car gun, mostly bedside. Several years ago I had a respected Luger smith check it over for me. He found it to be in excellent mechanical condition but only about 80% blue remaining...the upper is very good, but the grip frame is worn. No pitting. The wood is in good shape. All matching numbers except for one. Period correct magazines. Period correct holster that has been trimmed for an easier draw..probably done when the gun was purchased. Shucks. This particular smith recommended not shooting it because of possible firing pin problems with this vintage PO8. He said if I wanted to mess with a 9mm, to buy a different gun and "save" this one. So, I have "saved" it…and still haven't bought another 9mm. I'm a revolver type of guy, but I have the itch to shoot the darn thing. Recently I had a another smith look it over and strip and clean it up for me. I asked him about shooting it. His advice…shoot it and enjoy it. He said that if it were a pristine gun he would not make that recommendation. He also said that about any 115 or 124 grain ammo would be fine. Of course no +P. Is there any ammo that works especially well in a PO8? I still have half a box of pre-WWII ammo that I have kept with the gun. Think I'll "save" that. |
June 11, 2014, 12:09 PM | #56 |
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I have a similar question. Did you get a response to your question? I have a 1920 Luger P08 Commercial pistol, but no ammunition. I would like to shoot it. Can I purchase .30 caliber ammunition at most any gun shops and sporting goods stores that will work with my P08?
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June 11, 2014, 12:19 PM | #57 | |
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Try this link: http://ammoseek.com/ammo/30-luger |
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June 11, 2014, 07:01 PM | #58 |
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All P08s (German military pistols) were 9mm.
Apparently, Remington used to make a small annual run of .30 Luger ammo, but I think the last factory fodder I saw was Fiocchi? Handloading is a bit of a hassle, as the barrel groove diameter is closer to .310" than .308", so "thirty caliber" bullets are not of the ideal size. I push jacketed .311"-.312" bullets through a Lee sizing die, and they come out at the correct .309+. |
June 11, 2014, 07:47 PM | #59 | |
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June 12, 2014, 11:58 AM | #60 | |
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One Mom & Pop store/gas station I knew (basically the last place to gas up before heading into the high country) had shelves with a box of nearly every caliber known to man, including Weatherby and some African big game calibers. They would even sell individual cartridges. And more than one hunter over the years was very glad they did. The mom & pops often have stuff you just won't find on the shelves anywhere else. You just can't count on finding a specific thing at a specific place when you need it. Check out the old mom & pop hardware stores too. One place I found a 25rnd box of Win 12ga 00 Buckshot. Had been there so long, dust on the box, and the marked price was little more than a new 5rnd box at Walmart. And, the old boy gladly sold it to me for the marked price! Tough to beat that! Back to Lugers, the old lugers were set up to eat a 124gr @1050fps. That was the original 9mm loading. Most seem ok with the 115gr @1150fps, which later became the standard load. I wouldn't run anything else through an old Luger, no point to it.
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June 12, 2014, 06:44 PM | #61 | |
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AFAIK the only .30 Luger / 7.65 Para load that's consistently available from a major commercial maker is made by Fiocchi; it's an Italian company, hence the ammo is generally marked with the metric designation, although some of their boxes are evidently marked both ways. Speaking of which, both Fiocchi flavors are supposedly "Available" at Midway as I write this... http://www.midwayusa.com/product/167...ProductFinding http://www.midwayusa.com/product/652...ProductFinding That said, as others have pointed out, this is one of those cartridges that tends to linger on local store shelves for a LOOONG time. Don't be surprised to find 20+ year old Remchester. Also, just as an aside, .30 Luger / 7.65 Para is actually somewhat of an oddball, as it actually uses neither a true .30-caliber (0.308", 7.62mm) nor a true .32-caliber (0.312", 7.65mm) bullet; it's usually loaded with a 0.309-0.310" or 7.63mm caliber bullet, so it's .31-caliber.
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June 14, 2014, 01:03 AM | #62 |
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Wow! Midway's website is about the most user UNfriendly site I have ever seen. I did a search for ".30 Luger," "7.65 Luger." and "7.65 Parabellum," all of which showed "0" results. I finally tried looking under Fiocchi, and had to scroll through all the calibres. Then, when I wanted see what was in my cart, it wanted my email and a password. No thanks.
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