Higher end 1911's

[Jim Watson]

When you start thinking about the Wonders of Modern Machining, consider that the Cabot "clone technology" guns machined and ground for a fully interchangeable slide and receiver cost MORE than their "hand fitted" pistols.

[Hunter Customs]

I agree. The fit on Cabot 1911s is superior to anything from any other vendor, whether the vendor is "production," "semi-custom," or "custom." And Cabot guns are all done by CNC. The rails are smoother than any hand fitting can ever produce, and they DON'T need 500 rounds of "break in" before they'll run.

I respectfully disagree with some of the above statement.
I built a lot of custom guns through the years, what I called frame up builds were from after market frames and slides.
The frames and slides were oversized to the point that I had to machine the rails just to get the slides to start on the frames.

When that was done the hand lapping started, I started with 300 grit compound worked my way to 1200 grit compound for the finish and when the lapping process was complete the slide on a bare frame would flow fore and aft under it's own weight.
They were a tight fit and the slide moved like it was on ball bearings, even being a tight fit they did not require a 500 round break in.

My thoughts on the 500 round break in is the gun's not finished and if the gun requires a 500 round break in then the builder of the gun should furnish the ammo.
Here's some food for thought, when truly understanding the 1911 the slide to frame fit contributes a lot less to the mechanical accuracy of the pistol then most people think.

Now as for the cost of top shelf 1911 pistols costing $2500, for a custom builder such as myself the parts would cost me about $1300, the other $1200 would be labor including the finish.
When I'm talking finish I'm talking transparent finishes, true custom finishes that require metal prep such as bluing or hardchrome, not painted finishes anyone can spray paint a gun.

Most of your semi-custom builders have a lot less in parts then a true custom shop will have for the simple reason they are the ones building parts.
So in general their guns should be priced less.

Now if you are talking raceguns, yes the price will be higher then $2500.
First off there will be a higher cost in parts and it takes more time and knowledge to tune a racegun.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter

[Rogervzv]

Sorry Roger but your thoughts are very wrong.<snip>Les Baer 1911s don't require 500 rounds for break in. The vast majority of them work 100% right out of the box. Not really sure how because they are very tight. Very tight is a good thing as long as they are reliable which the vast majority of them are right out of the box. They come with enough CLP in the bag to last you a couple months.

Baer recommends a 500 round break-in period. This is not opinion. It is a fact.

I have known Baer owners who confirmed spotty cycling on the guns until break-in. This is not indicative of CNC production. A gun should not need 500 round to break in.

Baers are fine guns, don't get me wrong. Very accurate and well-made. Simply made by a process that is very non-cost-effective, specifically: hand-fitting.

It may even be that hand-fitting yields finer tolerances than CNC machine processes do. But it is a very expensive way to make a gun which is why very few guns are made this way. You pay a lot for that process and it is questionable whether the benefit justifies the cost in any objective way. Now, if it pleases the owner to know that the gun was produced in this way, then it is worth it to that owner, which is basic market economics.

On the 1911 Forum several years ago there was a controlled "shoot out" between various brands of 1911s. The Dan Wessons, along with one or two other high-end CNC production guns, out-shot the Baers. I've tried to find the link and if I do I will post it.

[Sevens]

I have to wonder about the experience and/or motivation behind any poster who suggests that Les Baer 1911 pistols need some kind of rigorous break-in period.

Between myself and my two closest gun buddies, the count stands at six Baer pistols. Of that six, three were bought NEW. One of these three was purchased with Baer's upcharged 1.5" guarantee.

ZERO of these six pistols give any feed failures. Only one of these six got any factory ammo, all five others have eaten handloads. I have deep regrets about the Les Baer Boss model that I bought and could not afford to keep. Totally a fiscal situation. My most vivid memory was the way it felt immediately out of the box when new. Lock up in full battery was ridiculous, like nothing I've felt and different (tighter) than the Ed Brown Special Forces I had before it and the Kobra I had around the same time. In feeling the Boss go in to and out of full battery, I also worried that I would experience malfunctions-- NEVER did that happen.

Any single pistol of any brand made by anyone and with any name or price could have a problem, for any number of reasons. But it's either ignorant or obnoxious (or BOTH) to try and spread some total myth that Baer 1911's won't run out of the box. It's false information that thousands of Baer owners will easily attest to if they heard or read such nonsense.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Rinspeed

Sorry Roger but your thoughts are very wrong. <snip> Les Baer 1911s don't require 500 rounds for break in.

Then why does Les refuse to even discuss problems if the owner hasn't run at least 500 rounds through the gun to "break it in"?

Roger is ... just raising a point of objection that many, many 1911 people have about Les Baer pistols.

[Edit to add] It's worth noting that there is NO mention of a minimum, mandatory break-in period on Les Baer's web site. However, just Google "les Baer Break-in" and you'll get pages upon pages of links to people who have encountered it. It's not a secret among people who follow 1911s, but it certainly isn't something that Les Baer makes prospective buyers aware of.

Futher, Les Baer does not offer any warranty -- at all. His web site specifically states:

Les Baer Custom, Inc. has elected not to provide any written warranty, either "limited” or "full”, rather than attempt to comply with the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Act and the regulations issued thereunder.

Elsewhere on that same page, he states:

As long as customer abuse has not created a problem, we will probably repair your custom pistol or rifle free of charge.

In other words, "We'll repair it is we feel like it -- or not." Which means that, in the end, there is no way for a prospective customer to know in advance whether or not a problem with his pistol will be repaired. Even if Baer agrees to take a pistol back for repair, the buyer is on the hook for shipping costs. Even lowly Rock Island pays to have a defective pistol returned for warranty service.

[Tibult]

The only high end 1911 I am interested in is Colt Gold Cup National Match.

[Sevens]

Les Baer is also well known as cantankerous with customer service and if we wish to pile on... his basic blued finish is cheap and nowhere in the hemisphere of durable. But the pistols are built well, run great and are accurate. YMMV.

[Rinspeed]

Originally Posted by Rogervzv

It may even be that hand-fitting yields finer tolerances than CNC machine processes do. But it is a very expensive way to make a gun which is why very few guns are made this way.

I've really thought I've pointed this out a couple times in this thread but you just don't seem to get it. Hopefully for the LAST TIME: Les Baer, when they specify the dimensions on their frames and slides they decide to leave more material on them both. That way when they come in they hand fit them with files. The Baer parts are made on similar, if not BETTER, CNC machining centers.

DW just simply has decided not to remove material by hand and just put them together as is. Again Dan Wesson does not have some magic "CNC machine processes' " Sure it's more expensive to hand fit them but how many other 1911 manufacturers will guarantee a 1.5" group at 50 yards. Just as another note DW has had a bunch of problems with their frames and slides galling up because they are not "hand" fitted and of course both are SS.

[Rinspeed]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Then why does Les refuse to even discuss problems if the owner hasn't run at least 500 rounds through the gun to "break it in"?

I've owned Baers for over 15 years and have seriously never heard that even once. 500 rounds, for people that actually shoot, is one or two days at the range. I think you're confusing Les Baer with Kimber.

[Sevens]

Ruger offers exactly the same warranty (or absence of one) and mentions it in nearly the the exact same manner.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Rinspeed

I've owned Baers for over 15 years and have seriously never heard that even once. 500 rounds, for people that actually shoot, is one or two days at the range. I think you're confusing Les Baer with Kimber.

No, I am not confusing Les Baer with Kimber.

500 rounds may be one or two days at the range for you, but for many people it's at least five trips to the range. For me, a trip to the range means 45 minutes of driving and 25 miles, each way, plus range fees. Regardless of how many trips, at current ammo prices even for Winchester USA it's roughly $200 out of the buyer's pocket to do the final fitting/lapping that Les Baer should be doing before the gun leaves his shop.

I can find four people who have never had a malfunction with a new Colt (in fact, I have had four new Colts with no malfunctions), but that doesn't mean I get to discount other people who HAVE encountered malfunctions with new Colts. And it doesn't mean you get to dismiss all the reports of malfunctions with new Les Baer pistols as Internet myths.

[1stmar]

Not defending les baer, as I too have ears he can be cantankerous, though personally I've never experienced it. Only spoke to him once. I've heard the same about Ed brown and actually have seen some video of it. I was an Ed brown fan till I saw the video. Believe it was from a shot show.

[Evan Thomas]

I have deleted several posts and edited several others, in an effort to save an otherwise interesting thread.

The ad hominem attacks, troll-calling, bickering, and all references to the foregoing will cease now, or there will be consequences. I'll be annoyed if the time I've spent cleaning up this thread turns out to have been wasted.

[Sgt Pepper]

Ed Brown. It's right in your price range, and is a fantastic pistol. The Ed Brown models are essentially the same and are primarily just thematic variations.

I have yet to meet a friend or other person that does not absolutely love shooting my Kobra and they all wish they had one.

[CDW4ME]

As stated on page 2, my Baer UTC was so tight I expected malfunctions, but that didn't happen; skeptical, I still didn't trust it for carry till after about 700 rounds.

Being tight (hard fit) is a selling point for Baer.
I find it odd that someone would consider spending $1,800+ for a pistol yet balk at the idea of shooting it 500 rounds to ensure reliability, "break-in".
45 acp 230 gr. FMJ brass case can be found for $13.50 box of 50.
https://www.outdoorlimited.com/CCI-B...-p/cci5230.htm
$135 + $15 shipping (approximate) is about $150 for 500 rounds.

Kimber and Kahr also have a recommended "break-in" so its not just Baer.

A recommended "break-in" doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me, but I'll run 200-300 rounds through a new Glock.
I can't imagine shooting 50 rounds through a new pistol and call it GTG.

[WVsig]

If you want the ultimate in fit and finish, buy a Cabot. They are "production" pistols that are fitted tighter than most custom pistols but, because they are production, you could go into their final assembly room and pick and slide and any frame at random, and the fit would be perfect. I've done it -- I was astonished. The finish on the parts was so smooth that the slide glided like it was running on oil, but the parts were absolutely bone dry.

http://cabotgun.com/better-than-custom-1911-pistols/

If you believe this then you have never seen, held, inspected or shot a 1911 from the likes of Ted Yost, Jim Garthwaite, John Harrison Ned Christiansan, Jason Burton or Don Williams to name a few. These guys are true bespoke pistol masters making functional works of art. IMHO

I am not knocking Cabots. They make great guns but personally I find their aesthetics off putting. I hate their logo and their slide serrations. For me there is just too much flash. It is totally subjective but if I am spending 5,000+ on 1911 every aspect of it is going to be subjective. LOL

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by CDW4Me

I find it odd that someone would consider spending $1,800+ for a pistol yet balk at the idea of shooting it 500 rounds to ensure reliability, "break-in".

I wondered when someone would bring this up. There is a difference between proving reliability, and "breaking in."

Since we've been talking about 500 rounds, let's stay with that even though some people think 300 rounds with no stoppages is enough to prove reliability, and others think that needs at least 1,000 rounds with no stoppages. That's different from when Les Baer won't talk to owners about stoppages unless they have fired at least 500 rounds to "break in" the pistol.

I think early in this thread someone mentioned having fired 450 rounds before the pistol started to run reliably. So up to that point it was NOT reliable. Firing 500 stoppage-free rounds, then only begins AFTER the last stoppage. If someone is unfortunate enough to still have problems after 500 rounds and Les Baer condescends to take the gun back and fix it (again, with the owner paying for shipping), the owner has already spent the money for those 500 (or more) rounds without achieving reliability. Then he gets to start over with another 500 rounds to (hopefully) prove reliability after the gun comes back from the repair shop.

IMHO the required "break-in" rounds should be factored into the cost of the pistol, because they are performing a task that Les baer should be doing. Then the 500 rounds to prove reliability are on the owner.

[1stmar]

IMO, There is no number of rounds you can fire and state with 100% confidence said pistol will perform flawlessly. For reference, I had a custom built pistol built several decades ago for uspsa competition. The year before I had been to my first nationals, I wanted to return with 2 pistols should one have a failure. I put thousands of flawless practice rounds (no breakin) through my second pistol to ensure its reliability, accuracy etc. so many rounds that it became my primary.

i had 4 stages where that same gun had jams. Haven't had a problem since. Who knows what it was, maybe stress, maybe gun.. Not sure and not relevant.

The point is Murphy's law, stuff happens and you better be prepared to deal with it.

There is no magic number of reliable rounds.

[Rinspeed]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

IMHO the required "break-in" rounds should be factored into the cost of the pistol, because they are performing a task that Les baer should be doing.

....But as I mentioned before there is no required break in period with Les Baer 1911s, several others have said the very same thing in this thread. The vast majority of them are 100% reliable from the very first round. My TRS has had one FTF in 2500 rounds right around the 800th shot.

They are very tight when new and I know that build philosophy is not for everyone. Myself, as long as it's reliable, a tight pistol is desirable. I've heard several people say, over the years, the Baer 1911s are built way too tight. In my experience the only ones that are too tight are the safe queens. Just my opinion of course. We don't all have to agree, and again if I was out of line in a couple of my posts I apologize.

[Rogervzv]

I've really thought I've pointed this out a couple times in this thread but you just don't seem to get it. Hopefully for the LAST TIME: Les Baer, when they specify the dimensions on their frames and slides they decide to leave more material on them both. That way when they come in they hand fit them with files. The Baer parts are made on similar, if not BETTER, CNC machining centers.

DW just simply has decided not to remove material by hand and just put them together as is. Again Dan Wesson does not have some magic "CNC machine processes' " Sure it's more expensive to hand fit them but how many other 1911 manufacturers will guarantee a 1.5" group at 50 yards. Just as another note DW has had a bunch of problems with their frames and slides galling up because they are not "hand" fitted and of course both are SS.

Yes, you have made these statements. And I have pointed out that they are untrue.

Baer does not use modern CNC techniques because they RELY on hand-fitting.

As far as DW "galling" goes, I own two Dan Wesson stainless 1911s and neither has any such issue. If some did in the past, modern statistical quality control would have identified the problem and DW would have taken corrective action. My two recent-purchase Dans show no such issue after thousands of rounds.

I will add that just from an aesthetic standpoint, both Colt and Dan Wessons have a nicer fit-and-finish than the Baers.

Dan Wesson PM-7 .45. No Baer can match it in terms of finish. As for shooting, it will hold its own or better with a Baer.



Colt National Match Gold Cup. It will easily shoot as well as a Baer for a grand less if you can find one at all. Fit and finish from an appearance standpoint are nicer than a Baer.

[Rinspeed]

Originally Posted by Rogervzv

I will add that just from an aesthetic standpoint, both Colt and Dan Wessons have a nicer fit-and-finish than the Baers.

Both of those are very good looking 1911s, shoot them in the best of health my friend.

[BigJimP]

Purely based on my own experience...I have had / or still have 1911's from Wilson, Ed Brown, Les Baer and Kimber....some of my buddies have 1911's from Cabot, Nighthawk and Springfield... and I have fired them all from time to time.

Personally in terms of fit and finish ...I rank Wilson and Ed Brown #1 and #2 but they are very close... #3 in my view is Cabot ..and then there is a drop off in my view ..to Nighthawk...and another drop off to Les Baer...and then Springfield, Kimber, etc...

My one Les Baer a 5" Monolith model in 9mm..took at least 1,000 rds before it would run reliably. I had similar issues with a Kimber Gold Combat stainless II model in .45 acp.... / my buddies had break in issues with the Cabot and the NIghthawks ...and all of the Springfield, Kimbers, etc..

I had no break in issues with my Wilson's both 5" guns ( CQB in .45 acp or Protector in 9mm ) or Ed Brown 5" Kobra Carry in .45 acp.../ I ran them thru a break in period per mfg's recommendations - but they never failed.

In terms of reliability ...my personal experience is Wilson makes a very solid gun ....and while I have retired my CQB in .45 acp from carry ( because of my increasing arthritis ) -- I am now carrying the Protector 5" in 9mm and I train weekly with the Protector - its coming up on 11 yrs old in a few months and about 200,000 rds now..but its still as solid as the day it was new.

The CQB .. http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...7&d=1360863612

my Les Baer http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...4&d=1357338883 .. which was never reliable enough for me to consider it as a carry weapon. It was also a disappointment to me in terms of fit and finish.

Wilson Protector model in 9mm... http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...9&d=1336163670 my primary carry gun now.

----------------
I'm a 1911 guy... in my late 60's now -- and I'm not ever getting away from carrying a 1911. The 2 Wilson's I have ....are 2 of the top 5 guns in my safe today...( and the other 3 in the top 5 that I own , would be a Sig X-Five L-1 model in .40 S&W, a S&W model 27-2 4" revolver, Nickel finish, .357 mag...and a Freedom Arms, 4 3/4" Octagonal barrel, model 83, 5 shot, large frame, single action revolver in .357 Mag...)...all 5 are very nice guns ...but the Wilson are certainly 2 of the top 5....

Ed Brown Kobra carry... probably in 6 - 10 .../ Kimbers maybe in 6 - 15 ...Sig 226's, lots of S&W revolvers in model 19's, 66's, 29's, 629's, 27's, 28's, 627's...are in there as well.

I would encourage to OP to try and find a Wilson Combat 5" gun...and if he wants a .45 acp...its hard to beat one of their basic models like the CQB in my view. There are about 20 CQB's right now on Wilson's website under "in stock" firearms that are between $3,500 and $3K right now - ready to ship tomorrow...as well as other models...

Good luck with your choice on the new gun !

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Rinspeed

....But as I mentioned before there is no required break in period with Les Baer 1911s, several others have said the very same thing in this thread.

And, as I and others have commented, when there IS a problem, Les Baer won't discuss it until the owner has put at least 500 rounds through the pistol. That is a de facto required break-in period.

[Metric]

I have a question about high-end 1911's that might fit here, but I'll start a new thread if necessary.

I'm curious how they retain their value over, say, a 10-15 year window.

Over the years, I've had a tended to buy "gently used" pistols of a high-end reputation (not counting certain plastic-framed workhorses that have also done well for me in practical use). Reflecting on my experience, many of them have increased noticeably in value over the last ~10-15 years (though I no longer own some of them) as I've shot and used them. This happens to be a nice feature that gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling, for some reason.

However, I also purchased a new Kimber custom royal back in 2000 (my most expensive purchase at that time, when I was just getting started), and it seems to have instead depreciated substantially, judging by some quick gunbroker searches. Of course, a Kimber is not a Wilson or a Brown, but I wonder if some of the same economics are at work -- the 1911 market seems to be subject to fads that command a premium price for a short time, followed by much easier availability later on.

Anyway, it seems like this question should be easily answered by someone with more high-end 1911 experience in the market than I have.

[BigJimP]

In my experience... Kimbers, Springfield ..or more common 1911's will depreciate....even if they are out of Kimbers true custom shop ...like their Gold Combat Stainless II model.

Partly because of almost annual price increases...guns from Wilson Combat will appreciate a little over time...even with many thousands of rounds thru them..if they are properly taken care of ...in part because Wilson Combat will guarantee the guns, for the life of the gun, even if they are purchased used.

Case in point...my Wilson CQB is about 15 yrs old, I bought it used, but it was new in box, for about $1,600.... today that gun retails for around $3,000....so its value on used market ( with about 25,000 rds thru it ) is probably between $2,250 and $2,500. My Wilson Protector model, all stainless in 9mm...10 yrs ago was about $ 2,300 ...and today that gun is close to $ 4,000 with the options I have on it ...mag chute, ambi safety,etc...and even with 200,000 rds thru it today its value is probably $ 2,750 - $3,000 ...because it has some handling marks on it with all that range and holster time.

Ed Brown and Cabot will also retain their value and appreciate a little...but I don't recall what their warranty is offhand.