Realistic Kidnapping Scenario - what can we learn from it?

[Rich Miranda]

Sarah is a 30-year old woman traveling a long distance with her husband and 1-year old child. They are in a mid-size sedan. At 1:00 PM they stop at a supermarket in what appears to be a decent part of the town they happen to be passing through. While her husband goes inside for the needed supplies, Sarah takes her baby out of the car seat, lays her on the back seat and proceeds to change her diaper while standing outside of the car bending down into the car.

Suddenly Sarah feels a massive shove from behind and she goes flying forward, landing on top of her baby in the back seat. The door slams behind her. In just a second or two, while she recovers from the initial shock, she realizes that someone – not her husband – has jumped into the driver seat. That person starts the car, backs out and drives off in just the few seconds it took Sarah to recover from the shove and get off her baby.

Sarah doesn’t recognize the person. He hasn’t spoken to her but she assumes that he means her harm. Her mind and heart are racing. She fears for her baby mostly, but also for herself. She has been kidnapped and her husband isn’t even aware of it. She makes a mental inventory of the tools she has available to her:

• a Ruger SP101 in .357, loaded and carried IWB.
• a cheap 3-inch folding knife in the pocket behind the passenger seat.
• a cell phone.
• a hairbrush with thick, hard plastic bristles.
• miscellaneous diaper bag items.

Questions:

1) YOU are Sarah. What do you do?
2) What are the legal ramifications of your actions?
3) What, if anything did Sarah and/or her husband do wrong?

[Skans]

Take the .357 and shoot him point blank in the head. I'd do it quickly, before the driver has time to concentrate on what I'm doing in the back seat. That's just what I'd do.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Yep, she is free to get the gun. No reason not to shoot and no legal consequences.

As far as mistakes - lost situational awareness by bending into the car.

I also recommend taking the dirty diaper and giving to the kidnapper as a hat.

But if this is Sarah Connor and the Terminator pushed her on John Connor and said - come with me if you want to live - might have a different response.

Why is there any doubt on this? I suppose there may be some trick - it's James Bond saving her from a killer.

[Evan Thomas]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

But if this is Sarah Connor and the Terminator pushed her on John Connor and said - come with me if you want to live - might have a different response.

I don't see why. If my pop-culture memory is accurate, the Terminator won't be much affected by a bullet from a .357 -- no harm, no foul, although I suppose one might have to worry about a ricochet off his head.

Shoot the fellow ASAP, say I, and try not to squash the baby when the car crashes.

This must be a trick, though... there has to be something clever one could do with the hairbrush.

[Kyo]

make sure the kid is ok.
Dial 911, put it on speaker, and put the phone down.
For safety of the kid I would put it to the back of his head and tell him to stop the car, keep both hands on the wheel and to not turn around.
Either that or waste the guy and make sure my kid is ok, I can't decide

The couple shouldn't separate especially if one is distracted with diaper changing. It should be 1 on the lookout and one doing the work. And inside the building not in the car.

[leadcounsel]

Draw gun.

Cover babies ears with something to protect from noise. Make sure baby is in car seat. Be conscious of the NOISE of the gun she's about to shoot.

As soon as it's safe (i.e. car is stopped in a safe location) shoot the perp in the back/torso. Don't aim for head. Too easy to miss. If torso shot doesn't kill him, shoot again.

[ClayInTx]

What to do?
1. Before the car has reached the main road and isn’t at full speed.
2. Shoot the perp through the seat back, 2 shots.
3. Protect the baby from injury as the car crashes into something.
4. Use cell phone to call 911.

Legal ramifications?
No grand jury will even indict her, unless in an “evil” state.

What did they do wrong?
1. Husband left car unlocked, or Sarah unlocked it to attend to baby.
2. Sarah left a position of relative safety in the car.

What should they have done? This assumes they had to have the supplies at that time and no other known place to get these.
1. Park as close to entrance as possible.
2. Leave car locked.
3. Sarah stay in car.
4. Change baby’s diaper after husband gets back.

Alternative:
Tell BG his hair is a mess and while she is brushing it preach to him about his errant ways until he runs screaming from the car.

[BobCat45]

Why shoot? Shooting a .357 magnum inside a closed car is going to be unpleasant for Sarah, and cost the baby it's hearing.

She has, according to the original scenario, "a cheap 3-inch folding knife in the pocket behind the passenger seat." Open it and stick it in the back of the kidnapper's neck, at the base of his skull. Much quieter than shooting, just as effective in ending the kidnap.

Since she has the SP101, she has presumably already made up her mind that she and her child will survive - and she is willing to inflict severe or fatal injury on an aggressor who presents a realistic threat to her or her child if there is no other recourse. Better the police confiscate a cheap folder than her carry pistol, and and better to wash blood off her hand than inflict deafness on the child.

And - situational awareness - if the diaper really needs changing, wait for husband to return and provide eyes/awareness, or have him change the diaper while she surveys the situation.

[the rifleer]

well I'd eat a lot, its hard to kidnap fat people.

in all seriousness though, if i could reach the gun and point it at that person, i would. I would seriously feel my life was endanger if a stranger did that. I'm not sure that I would immediately pull the trigger, but if it was just one person and he was driving and you have a gun leveled at his head, he is going to stop. I would try and stay a back a little that way he would have a harder time grabbing the gun

if i couldn't get the gun, i would throw something at him, then grab the knife and go from there.

[KenpoTex]

As a couple of people have touched on, the mistake was putting herself in a vulnerable position in the first place. Her concentration on changing the diaper is an example of what an instructor known as SouthNarc refers to as "Task Fixation" which is anything that compromises one's awareness. Other common examples include (but are not limited to): talking/texting on the phone, reading, messing with checkbooks or receipts in the car after coming out of the store, putting kids in the car-seat, etc.

In this case, she could have either taken the kid into the store restroom and used one of those changing tables, changed the diaper before the husband left, or waited 'till he got back.
Better decision making would have made being forced to react to a kidnapping unnecessary.


If for some reason however, she was still kidnapped, a contact shot to the back of the BG's head would solve the problem rather quickly.

[Tucker 1371]

A) Put it to the back of his head, pull the hammer back so he audibly knows what is going on and ask him nicely to stop the car. This way there's no car wreck and, if the thug complies, everyone goes home (or to jail) alive.

B) Buckle the baby in as best as possible. Blow the jerk's brains out and try to reach over his shoulder and grab the wheel, wait for the car to slow and then coast onto the median or road side.

Both have risks, it just depends on which ones you are willing to take.

[omkhan]

Hold the guy at gun point and ordered to stop. Shoot if he isn't impressed.

I agree with the others that she should have waited for the husband before changing the diapers. However, sitting in the car with the baby may as well result in a different scenario by such a determined BG e.g. he may have got the door locks opened while keeping his gun pointed towards the baby, forcing Sarah herself to drive the car away etc...

[Peru]

sad part is that this is a true story. Only difference was there was no husband and the parking lot where it happened was in a familiar place to the victim.

in the real life story sara gets rapped and bludgeoned to death. her and her baby are tossed in the woods. baby is found by a person walking their dog. the baby comes very close to death due to exposure to the sun and dehydration.

the perp had a record and was also much stronger than the victim.

Woulda, coulda, shulda -- real life is full of surprises and no one can keep up their guard all the time especially in your own neighborhood.

[Brian Pfleuger]

1)I'd cover the babies ears as best as possible and shoot the guy.

2)None(likely), yes, there's always somebody who can come up with something.

3)Um, the guy's driving? Who's the idiot that left the keys in the ignition?

in the real life story sara gets rapped and bludgeoned to death. her and her baby are tossed in the woods. baby is found by a person walking their dog. the baby comes very close to death due to exposure to the sun and dehydration.

Is Sara not armed in the real life story?

[Evan Thomas]

I missed this last night:

That person starts the car, backs out and drives off in just the few seconds it took Sarah to recover from the shove and get off her baby.

Don't leave the keys in the ignition... ever. [ETA: PK, ya beat me to it]

And while shooting the kidnapper immediately would certainly be justified, on second thought, the consequences for the baby's hearing (potentially, total and permanent hearing loss -- young nervous systems are fragile), and the risk of a crash, might make putting the gun to his head, with a command to pull over, a better first option.

And I still haven't figured out what one could do with the hairbrush.

Originally Posted by Peru

sad part is that this is a true story. Only difference was there was no husband and the parking lot where it happened was in a familiar place to the victim.

in the real life story sara gets rapped and bludgeoned to death.

Did the victim actually have a gun and knife, and that was still the outcome? If so, it shows once again that situational awareness is all...

[KenpoTex]

Originally Posted by Peru

sad part is that this is a true story. Only difference was there was no husband and the parking lot where it happened was in a familiar place to the victim.


Woulda, coulda, shulda -- real life is full of surprises and no one can keep up their guard all the time especially in your own neighborhood.

Therein lies the problem. It's EASY to allow your awareness to lapse--your guard to drop--in places where we "feel safe." People always talk about how they prepare themselves or arm themselves better when going to "dangerous" places, or places "where I might need a gun." The thing we have to remember is that most of us spend much of our time in familiar surroundings...going to work, going to the store, at home, etc. As a result, if we are targeted, it is most likely going to be in/around one of those places.

It is exactly for that reason that we should always strive to be aware of what is going on around us, to make smart choices regarding our actions, and always be prepared to deliver efficient violence to protect ourselves. The whole "I don't feel the need to do 'X' in my day-to-day life" is a non-starter.
Unfortunately, too many people find out the hard way that there are no "safe" places.

[Peru]

No sara was not armed but I commented on that because almost the exact same events played out in real life. We will never know if had sara been armed would the outcome been different. Also, I dont know all the details because I got my info from the allmighty TV.


As far as being aware of your surroundings all the time -- for your average citizen in this country it is impossible to do. This is such a safe place that most people never get a chance to use it let alone keep it up. At 41 I have spent over 3/4 of my life traveling mostly in Latin America and to other places where safety is a luxury and in some cases next to impossible. Just to give you an idea Ive spent a considerable about of time in Colombia back when it was at its worse, in Nicaragua, Venezuela, Guatemala and others. I had at that time developed a keen sense of my surroundings mostly for the fear of being kidnapped -- call it a sixth sense and the ridged set of rules that I followed. That kept me 98% trouble free for all of those years. Over here my defenses go down. To ask your average mom in suburbia to be able have that level of situational awareness is IMO impossible.

I say should of, could of or would have is that it is impossible to say how events will play out. Had it been me as a woman with less of a chance to physically fight and had I had the chance to pull the gun I would have made damn sure that I would have ruined that guys day for "ever". I am not taking any risks with someone whom may be determined rape and kill and not just rob. Id worry about my kids hearing and legal issues after that fact. Better deaf than dead and or with out a parent.

also, those types of situation evolve so quickly and with adrenalin pumping its very hard to think outside of the tunnel vision. Very few people have the ability to control the adrenalin rush.

[Dabull]

How loud would the .357 be if she pressed the muzzle into the back of the driver's seat and fired? Would the seat muffle the noise (like on tv, when somebody places a pillow over someone's face and fires into the pillow). I guess this question is sort of asking if the pillow trick is realistic or not.

[Rich Miranda]

For those wondering, yes, this indeed did happen.

I saw it on Forensic Files, I think. I used it here because I wanted a realistic scenario. I made up the name and some details to flesh out the scenario, but the situation was real as described.

'Sarah' was unarmed as far as I know. She was raped and killed. Her child was not killed but left to die by her body. Someone walking a dog nearby heard the child's cries and found her. The baby had second-degree burns on her back from 12 hours of sun exposure, but she survived.

OK, so what lessons might we draw from this situation? Many of you have made excellent points in your posts so far, and I'll add my thoughts:

• Sarah was left alone in a situation where she could not be expected to maintain situational awareness. She should have gone inside to change the diaper or have her husband stay behind and watch over them.
  
• The keys were left in the ignition. The killer obviously saw this when he cased the car or he wouldn't have done this otherwise.
  
• Sarah didn't fight back (as far as we know). OK, you've been kidnapped, now what? You're behind the guy.... gouge his effing eyeballs out! Rip his face apart! Use ANYTHING you have on hand that might work. You don't have to kill him, just make him crash so you can draw attention to the car. I mentioned the hairbrush because when used from behind directly on the eyes, that could be ultra painful and cause severe eye injury. As far as the cheap folding knife, many people have small metal tools in the car that can be used as effective weapons, especially given the advantage of being directly behind the kidnapper. What about diaper rash ointment? I've never put it in my eyes, but even if it doesn't sting, a big gob will impair vision. Bottom line: fight back aggressively with anything you have on hand AND as quickly as possible, before the kidnapper gets you to a secluded place.
  
• Sarah was unarmed. While carrying a concealed weapon is a personal choice, it can sometimes be the choice between choosing life or accepting death. Had Sarah been armed, the ordeal would have been over in less than a minute.

With regard to possible injuries from the resulting car crash, I think that's a negligible concern given that the alternative is certain death (I say certain death because once kidnapped your odds of survival drop dramatically).

Hopefully this thread has reinforced your ability to stay safe. That was the goal.

[Evan Thomas]

Yes, I did finally think of the hairbrush-to-the-eyes thing last night.

But also: in the absence of an actual weapon, what about using the purse/diaper bag itself? If you're carrying both your stuff and the baby's, chances are you're using a large shoulder bag with a long, hefty strap made of leather or nylon.

Get behind the guy, loop the strap over his head and around his neck, brace your knees against the back of the driver's seat so you can get leverage to use the large muscles of the torso, and haul. This would be most effective if the driver's seat has a narrow head restraint, or better yet none, but I think it would work reasonably well regardless. You have the seat back between you and the driver, so he'll have a very hard time reaching you if he can't turn around, and I don't see how he can fight you off and control the car at the same time.

And as you point out, Rich, a crash in this situation is a win, compared to the odds in a kidnapping.

Good, thought-provoking thread.

[EMB135Driver]

I think I'd stab him in the neck with the knife....thus motivatiing him to get out of driver's seat.....I would do this with one hand while holding the gun in the other so after he was stabbed I could drop the knife and cover him with the gun...if he was unwilling to flee at that point, he'd have to eat a hot lead sandwich. I think If you burried the muzzle in his flesh before pulling the trigger you'd muffle a lot of the sound too. I think the knife would be enough to motivate him to leave, and everyones hearing is intact.

[HuntAndFish]

I think attempting to use the knife when you have a gun available is just crazy talk. Hearing be damned, I would open up on this guy and do it NOW. You don't know if he is armed and what he is capable of. Don't give him any chances.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

John Farnam says: Don't Futter Around.

You are in life and death situation. Using all these secondary means or talking to the guy with a threat is futtering big time. They can go awry.

Nuke him.

[Daugherty16]

then this situation might never have developed. The mantle of responsibility that descended on me almost immediately upon strapping on my pistol for the first time was visceral. Without knowing what i was looking for, and having never heard the term "situational awareness" as it is used in our world, i recall becoming hyper-aware of the people and things around me, and started looking for sites like this - i may not post all that much but read a lot.

That said, i assume it would have been true for Sara, thus she would have had the keys in her pocket, the doors would have been locked, etc...

Solution to the scenario - While i'd be sorely tempted to blow off an ear to make my point, it seems more prudent to press the gun firmly into the seatback and cock the hammer. Summon a command voice and advise of the perp's imminent and violent demise unless he pulls over NOW, with a capital "F". A .357 would have no trouble penetrating the seat, only possibility i see is clogging up a JHP with fabric so it fails to expand. Nothing that 3-4 shots wouldn't cure. Hearing damage is irrelevent when life saving is your number one priority. Hair brushes and cheap folders are for MacGyver.

Might get dicey when he stops, but being directly behind him in a car is a distinct advantage - he simply can't get to her. Stay in car, tell him to leave it running, open the door, lock the lock, get out and shut the door. He may leave it open, in which case you have to decide whether to climb over or roll down your window and shoot him. Maybe he runs away, giving enough cushion to get out and hop in the front. Only after he's gone, doors locked, and you're back in control should you worry about calling 911. The car seat is a distant 3rd.

Much easier scenario really, than the Denver street thugs surrounding you and your honey on the street.

[johnnymenudo]

The sooner you end it the better. If you are not eliminating the threat within 10-15 seconds you have waited too long. How do you know he doesn't have an accomplice waiting at the next corner to jump in and control you?

I would not go for the head. Hard to stay on target with a moving vehicle and you get the weapon at a level where it could be taken away. You either shoot throught the driver's seat and keep shooting until dead, or you grab the driver's head and stabilize yourself against the seat back, and go ear to ear with the knife. If you know your anatomy, knife to brain stem.

I vote shoot through the seat - all rounds, then use the knife to be certain. End it now.