Santa Fe Enfield....

Keg · June 8, 2012, 07:16 AM

This gun was put together by Santa Fe Arms...I have thought it was a #4....
Can anyone tell me what they think from pics? Any info appreciated....1943 standard

Keg · June 8, 2012, 07:17 AM

More pics...

Keg · June 8, 2012, 07:18 AM

Magazine....

mapsjanhere · June 8, 2012, 08:29 AM

hmm, looks like a #5 set-up (short stock, flash hider) made by Santa Fe Arms from surplus WWII rifles. The production of real #5 didn't start until 1944. Check for the presence of the lightning cuts and rubber butt plate.

Keg · June 8, 2012, 08:33 AM

But was it built from an original #5 or a #4 or other? I know of Golden State Arms history....It has rubber butt pad..not lightning cuts...

Tikirocker · June 8, 2012, 09:05 AM

Santa Fe's are in no way legit No5 Mk1's ... they made Jungle Carbine replica's from both No1 MkIII and No4 Mk1 actions - telling the difference is the same as telling the difference between a No1 vs No4 action.

Tiki.

Keg · June 8, 2012, 10:53 AM

Tiki...Golden State arms built Sporters and replicas from old military rifles....I know this....Which Enfield model was this built from?

tahunua001 · June 8, 2012, 10:59 AM

Quote:

But was it built from an original #5 or a #4 or other? I know of Golden State Arms history....It has rubber butt pad..not lightning cuts...

the date stamped on it is 1943 meaning that it predates the initial release of the #5. also since it has no lightening cuts, it's safe to say that it's either a #1 or #4 action. if you look at the bolt face, it's the same contours as the bolt while the #1 bolt faces were large and more rounded so it is fairly safe to assume that this rifle was converted from a 1943 #4 mk1.

wogpotter · June 8, 2012, 11:32 AM

Hi KEG.
It was converted from a No4 Mk1 action. The give away is the rear sight, the No4 had a peep/flip/ladder mounted over the rear of the receiver, the No1, aka SMLE, had an open sight part way down the barrel. Its a Mk 1 not a Mk2 or a Mk1* because of the bolt release lever (the Mk1* had a cut in the rail instead)and the sheet reinforce at the rear of the forend. The Mk2 had a cross-bolt instead.

Keg · June 8, 2012, 11:39 AM

tahunua...I figure #4 mkI..but I think 1943 Standard was just their model name....It is only on the barrel and the barrel was replaced during the building process....

Wogpotter...Thanks..I knew someone could figure it out....I figured the action/sight pics would be the info U needed....

Limey46 · June 8, 2012, 12:23 PM

Interesting. Did it start life as a No.4 or a No.5, or maybe a little of both? The bolt knob is hollowed out, so that could have come from a No.5. What's the highest number on the ladder sight? If it's 8, then the sight is also from a No. 5. But then, there are no little No.5 lightening cuts on the upper sides of the receiver, just below where the rear sight folds down, so...

I don't see anything stamped on the left-side flat of the action, but is there anything stamped on the left side of the heel, apart from 'ENGLAND', or did Santa Fe grind that stuff off?

Keg · June 8, 2012, 12:54 PM

Limey..Can U tell from the bolt because there is a hole in it? I will have to check sight later....The receiver looks to have been ground on the side....

Quote:

I don't see anything stamped on the left-side flat of the action, but is there anything stamped on the left side of the heel, apart from 'ENGLAND'?

There is a row of numbers..or combination of letters and numbers....

Limey46 · June 8, 2012, 01:35 PM

[IMG]

[/IMG]

Never mind. I'll try again.

Limey46 · June 8, 2012, 01:38 PM

Here's a No.4

Limey46 · June 8, 2012, 01:40 PM

...and here's a No.5. Subtle differences, but they're there.

Those numbers and letters on the heel will tell us a lot, if you feel okay about sharing them.

Keg · June 8, 2012, 02:29 PM

Definitely looks like the #4 to me.... I will get #'s....

Tikirocker · June 8, 2012, 05:48 PM

The OP's rifle is a sportered No4 ... to repeat again, NO Santa Fe Jungle Carbine is originally a No5 Mk1 ... no point converting a No5 into a No5 when it is already a No5. Santa Fe took full length No1 and No4 Enfields and turned them into their version of a Jungle Carbine.

Tiki.

Limey46 · June 8, 2012, 06:51 PM

Your point is just as valid the second time as it was the first, Tikirocker, but I'm still puzzled by the hollowed-out bolt knob on Keg's gun. I've owned three Santa Fe carbines myself and handled many more of them, but I've never seen one with what looks like a real No.5 bolt. Santa Fe certainly never went to the trouble of drilling out No.4 bolt knobs and then refinishing them just to make them look right.

gyvel · June 8, 2012, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Your point is just as valid the second time as it was the first, Tikirocker, but I'm still puzzled by the hollowed-out bolt knob on Keg's gun. I've owned three Santa Fe carbines myself and handled many more of them, but I've never seen one with what looks like a real No.5 bolt. Santa Fe certainly never went to the trouble of drilling out No.4 bolt knobs and then refinishing them just to make them look right.

That's because some No. 4 bolts were made with hollow knobs.

Tikirocker · June 8, 2012, 08:09 PM

^^^^^ Exactly ...

Added to that there is a clear difference between the hollowed bolt knob on a No4 and a No5 as the No5 hole is larger than that of the No4 in diameter. The bolt knob on the Santa Fe is a standard No4 bolt because it comes from a No4 rifle - the only rifles used by Santa Fe for conversion were No1's and No4's ... never No5's.

Tiki.

James K · June 8, 2012, 09:17 PM

Good heavens, guys, it used to be a Rifle No. 4; now it is a Golden State something or other.

Jim

Limey46 · June 8, 2012, 09:29 PM

Hmm. A No.4 bolt originally made with a hole in it would explain things nicely. I didn't think of that. Must need a new brain.

Tikirocker · June 8, 2012, 11:48 PM

Limey,

No need to feel like a brain tranny mate ... many Enfield enthusiasts need to be told about the hollowed bolt heads on No4 rifles as well as it is a common assumption made that the only rifles with hollowed heads were the No5's; now you know different, and you know how to tell them apart.

Tiki.

Keg · June 9, 2012, 06:39 AM

Yes..a #4....Has #4 sight....GB28392A....Thank yall....Good info here....

www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_santafe.html

Those were the good ole days.....

madcratebuilder · June 9, 2012, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Yes..a #4....Has #4 sight....GB28392A....Thank yall....Good info here....

If GB28392A is the original serial number it would indicate it's a early 1943 Fazakerley build. The "A" suffix indicates one or more non-standard part(s) were used. Normally a over sized pin.

The Santa Fe magazine is a desirable mag, legal for game hunting and are very well made.

I have two of the Golden State Arms sporters. I have started to collect these as I have run out of No4's to collect.

Just found this No4 GSA for next to nothing. Built on a MkII it has a hollow bolt handle as well.

June 8, 2012, 09:05 AM	#6
Tikirocker Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2007 Location: NSW, Australia Posts: 909	Santa Fe's are in no way legit No5 Mk1's ... they made Jungle Carbine replica's from both No1 MkIII and No4 Mk1 actions - telling the difference is the same as telling the difference between a No1 vs No4 action. Tiki. __________________ The Lee Enfield forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27 Surplus Rifle Forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/index.php

June 8, 2012, 10:53 AM	#7
Keg Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2011 Location: Freestone County, Texas Posts: 1,133	Tiki...Golden State arms built Sporters and replicas from old military rifles....I know this....Which Enfield model was this built from? __________________ Hog Hunters never die........They just reload.........

June 8, 2012, 11:32 AM	#9
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Hi KEG. It was converted from a No4 Mk1 action. The give away is the rear sight, the No4 had a peep/flip/ladder mounted over the rear of the receiver, the No1, aka SMLE, had an open sight part way down the barrel. Its a Mk 1 not a Mk2 or a Mk1* because of the bolt release lever (the Mk1* had a cut in the rail instead)and the sheet reinforce at the rear of the forend. The Mk2 had a cross-bolt instead. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

June 8, 2012, 11:39 AM	#10
Keg Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2011 Location: Freestone County, Texas Posts: 1,133	tahunua...I figure #4 mkI..but I think 1943 Standard was just their model name....It is only on the barrel and the barrel was replaced during the building process.... Wogpotter...Thanks..I knew someone could figure it out....I figured the action/sight pics would be the info U needed.... __________________ Hog Hunters never die........They just reload.........

June 8, 2012, 12:23 PM	#11
Limey46 Member Join Date: August 31, 2008 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 22	Interesting. Did it start life as a No.4 or a No.5, or maybe a little of both? The bolt knob is hollowed out, so that could have come from a No.5. What's the highest number on the ladder sight? If it's 8, then the sight is also from a No. 5. But then, there are no little No.5 lightening cuts on the upper sides of the receiver, just below where the rear sight folds down, so... I don't see anything stamped on the left-side flat of the action, but is there anything stamped on the left side of the heel, apart from 'ENGLAND', or did Santa Fe grind that stuff off? Last edited by Limey46; June 8, 2012 at 12:53 PM.

June 8, 2012, 08:29 AM	#4
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	hmm, looks like a #5 set-up (short stock, flash hider) made by Santa Fe Arms from surplus WWII rifles. The production of real #5 didn't start until 1944. Check for the presence of the lightning cuts and rubber butt plate. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

June 8, 2012, 08:33 AM	#5
Keg Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2011 Location: Freestone County, Texas Posts: 1,133	But was it built from an original #5 or a #4 or other? I know of Golden State Arms history....It has rubber butt pad..not lightning cuts... __________________ Hog Hunters never die........They just reload......... Last edited by Keg; June 8, 2012 at 08:51 AM.

June 8, 2012, 01:35 PM	#13
Limey46 Member Join Date: August 31, 2008 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 22	[IMG][/IMG] Never mind. I'll try again.

June 8, 2012, 01:38 PM	#14
Limey46 Member Join Date: August 31, 2008 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 22	Here's a No.4

June 8, 2012, 01:40 PM	#15
Limey46 Member Join Date: August 31, 2008 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 22	...and here's a No.5. Subtle differences, but they're there. Those numbers and letters on the heel will tell us a lot, if you feel okay about sharing them. Last edited by Limey46; June 8, 2012 at 01:54 PM.

June 8, 2012, 02:29 PM	#16
Keg Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2011 Location: Freestone County, Texas Posts: 1,133	Definitely looks like the #4 to me.... I will get #'s.... __________________ Hog Hunters never die........They just reload.........

June 8, 2012, 05:48 PM	#17
Tikirocker Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2007 Location: NSW, Australia Posts: 909	The OP's rifle is a sportered No4 ... to repeat again, NO Santa Fe Jungle Carbine is originally a No5 Mk1 ... no point converting a No5 into a No5 when it is already a No5. Santa Fe took full length No1 and No4 Enfields and turned them into their version of a Jungle Carbine. Tiki. __________________ The Lee Enfield forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27 Surplus Rifle Forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/index.php

June 8, 2012, 06:51 PM	#18
Limey46 Member Join Date: August 31, 2008 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 22	Your point is just as valid the second time as it was the first, Tikirocker, but I'm still puzzled by the hollowed-out bolt knob on Keg's gun. I've owned three Santa Fe carbines myself and handled many more of them, but I've never seen one with what looks like a real No.5 bolt. Santa Fe certainly never went to the trouble of drilling out No.4 bolt knobs and then refinishing them just to make them look right.

June 8, 2012, 08:09 PM	#20
Tikirocker Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2007 Location: NSW, Australia Posts: 909	^^^^^ Exactly ... Added to that there is a clear difference between the hollowed bolt knob on a No4 and a No5 as the No5 hole is larger than that of the No4 in diameter. The bolt knob on the Santa Fe is a standard No4 bolt because it comes from a No4 rifle - the only rifles used by Santa Fe for conversion were No1's and No4's ... never No5's. Tiki. __________________ The Lee Enfield forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27 Surplus Rifle Forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/index.php

June 8, 2012, 09:17 PM	#21
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Good heavens, guys, it used to be a Rifle No. 4; now it is a Golden State something or other. Jim

June 8, 2012, 09:29 PM	#22
Limey46 Member Join Date: August 31, 2008 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 22	Hmm. A No.4 bolt originally made with a hole in it would explain things nicely. I didn't think of that. Must need a new brain. Last edited by Limey46; June 8, 2012 at 09:48 PM.

June 8, 2012, 11:48 PM	#23
Tikirocker Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2007 Location: NSW, Australia Posts: 909	Limey, No need to feel like a brain tranny mate ... many Enfield enthusiasts need to be told about the hollowed bolt heads on No4 rifles as well as it is a common assumption made that the only rifles with hollowed heads were the No5's; now you know different, and you know how to tell them apart. Tiki. __________________ The Lee Enfield forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27 Surplus Rifle Forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/index.php

June 9, 2012, 06:39 AM	#24
Keg Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2011 Location: Freestone County, Texas Posts: 1,133	Yes..a #4....Has #4 sight....GB28392A....Thank yall....Good info here.... www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_santafe.html Those were the good ole days..... __________________ Hog Hunters never die........They just reload......... Last edited by Keg; June 9, 2012 at 08:04 AM.