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August 16, 2009, 12:57 PM | #126 | ||||||
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August 16, 2009, 01:04 PM | #127 | |
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"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
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August 16, 2009, 01:56 PM | #128 |
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,,,
Last edited by Poseidon28; August 17, 2009 at 08:00 PM. Reason: I'm leaning on allowing the continuation of this thread in the direction it seems to be going, but at the first sign of any i |
August 16, 2009, 02:09 PM | #129 | |
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August 16, 2009, 02:34 PM | #130 | ||||
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Some have suggested that the Secret Service simply acts through local law enforcement. That view is supported multiple times in the Senate report, including: "S. 2896 will not supersede any existing laws, and the Secret Service will still rely upon State and local police for most crowd control as they have done in the past." Furthermore, a 2005 4th Circuit case involving Presidential Security Areas (the only such case I was able to find before a federal court), contained the following: Quote:
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August 16, 2009, 03:03 PM | #131 |
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I'm wading into this a bit late so forgive me if I overlook anything. It seems that the core of the debate here is whether Mr. Kostric helped, hurt, or had no effect on RKBA. In order to find the answer to this question, I think we need to examine the facts of what happened. Mr. Kostric broke no laws and was never even particularly close to President Obama, he was apparently left unmolested by the Secret Service, he made no overt threats (his sign and shirt could possibly be construed as one but I think that's stretching things a bit), and he managed to remain calm and controlled during what I consider to be a grilling by an obviously irate Chris Mathews. So, what messages were sent by these events? I see two, the first and most obvious is that firearms and the people who carry them can be present without leading to violence. In watching the interview with Mathews, it appears to me that his was the main message that Mr. Kostric was attempting to send and, because there was no violence, it would appear that this message was sent successfully. The second message that was sent was a bit more subtle, given the recent acts of intimidation and outright violence carried out against people who oppose the government at town hall meetings, I think Mr. Kostric sent a message telling those who would carry out such acts that not everyone is as easy a target as they might think. In essence, Mr. Kostric's gun served as a deterrent.
So, are these messages helpful, harmful, or indifferent to RKBA? To answer this question, one must look at this incident from the standpoint of the casual observer. Obviously, Mr. Kostric's actions aren't going to change the minds of those on opposed ends of the spectrum regarding this issue. Someone who is frightened by Mr. Kostric's actions is acting on the basis of emotion rather than logic. An outright fear of firearms is, IMHO, irrational and thusly no logical argument can change it. Such people are arleady unlikely to be supportive of our cause and thusly Mr. Kostric's actions regarding them make no difference. Likewise, people on our end of things are unlikely to be made into anti's by Mr. Kostric. They will argue that even if Mr. Kostric's actions were ill-advised, counter-productive, or inappropriate, the actions of one person do not justify an infringement upon the rights of everyone else. Therefore, the only people who can really be impacted by Mr. Kostric's actions are the fence-sitters: those who have no opinion or who are still formulating one. To these people, I think the fact that Mr. Kostric did what he did without an act of violence occuring may mildly influence their opinions. What I think will probably influence opinions more than anything is the way the Mr. Kostric handled himself during the Mathews interview. The fact that the supposed "gun nut" remained calm and rational while the supposedly impartial journalist lost his temper doesn't really jive with the steriotype of gun owners as a bunch of looney, anarchist, Rambo-wannabes that the anti's have been promoting for years. Through their own attempts to spin and outright bias, the slanted journalists (namely Mathews) as MSNBC have actually helped our cause by discrediting their own. That, I think, is more powerful that the event itself. As to the second message that Kostric sent, I kind of doubt that most people outside of government will pick up on it. However, for those that do, I think the message is quite powerful: You don't have to just roll over and take it, you have both a means and right to defend your freedom. |
August 16, 2009, 03:11 PM | #132 |
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+1 WebleyMkV
Excellent analysis. I can't find fault with anything in that post. Thanks.
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August 16, 2009, 03:37 PM | #133 |
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Last edited by Poseidon28; August 18, 2009 at 12:07 AM. Reason: moderation |
August 16, 2009, 03:52 PM | #134 | ||||
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It is precisely since the inception of this new discussion forum, that the members of TFL have used restraint in expressing themselves (again, mostly), that some purely political discussion is allowed. Quote:
Fact of the matter is that between your response and the reasoned responses by OuTcAsT and maestro pistolero, my own position (or viewpoint) has changed. |
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August 16, 2009, 04:14 PM | #135 | |
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Winning in court against a government over-reaction establishes good legal precedent, but you have to be prosecuted by the government (not assured - they can always drop charges) or sue the government (an expensive proposition) to get to court. However, if the man had been arrested, there would have been many more "man with a gun arrested" stories than "questionable basis for man's arrest" stories. The incident would certainly not have received the sympathetic coverage that the arrest of free speech advocates generates. The press coverage would have been shrill and heavily anti-gun, so the public view of the incident would probably not have been positive. |
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August 16, 2009, 04:16 PM | #136 | ||||
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Second, you are correct in that they rely in very large part upon local LE and I can tell you personally that the local LEs do virtually anything they ask and what they ask is always reasonable and related to protecting the President and others they are assigned to. My bias is somewhat showing and maybe later on I can dig up the legislation I used to use that is out there but trust me it would boogle your mind what law has been written for them. They are BTW the most professional competent individuals I have ever worked with IMO.
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August 16, 2009, 04:49 PM | #137 | |
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August 16, 2009, 05:28 PM | #138 |
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My problem is I remember what happened in Florida back in 1987. When Florida's new "Shall Issue" CCW law came into effect, there was no provision for open carry, so technically it was legal. Immediately there were several "in your face" incidents of people doing open carry and the news media was all over it. Naturally, the State acted quickly to ban all open carry in the state. At the time, Pro-gunners owned the state. We had just passed the first ever "shall issue" law. We had just stripped all cities and counties of their abilities to pass guns laws. I feel that if it had been handled differently, Florida may actually be an open carry state today. Unfortunately we could not compete with the flood of fear the media was able to cast over the state.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it. MSNBC/Chris Matthews wasn't the only news outlet to cover this incident, so not everyone got a chance to see how Kostric handled himself. I have seen several references to this in the media and you can rest assured they do not cast a good image over the 2nd Amendment. I still believe the overall effect of this incident is negative.
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August 16, 2009, 08:20 PM | #139 | |
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August 17, 2009, 02:38 PM | #140 |
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AR15s at the Presidential rally in AZ
An African American was one of two citizens demonstrating their 2A rights at a rally in AZ today. When ask why he was carrying an Assault rifle, he said "because I can".
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/liv...bama-event.php |
August 17, 2009, 03:11 PM | #141 |
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cute but...
I really doubt he was doing it to proclaim his 2nd Amendment rights. He was attempting to be a media hog and hoped to somehow get into the spotlight and benefit himself by doing so.
Looking at the video and those two groups of people yelling and screaming at each other truly makes me sad. The fact is people are being motivated by questionable means. I guess the people that run the country have come to the conclusion that people can no longer handle the truth. I am willing to bet that newspeak won't be too far off if this is not stopped. I get the feeling that this concept of lying to the masses was started by the Brady Campaign, yet I bet it goes back farther.
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August 17, 2009, 03:19 PM | #142 | |
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August 17, 2009, 03:24 PM | #143 |
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The guy came off as an attention hog. Think college age female walking around town in a bikini, but in a more modest, middle aged male sort of way.
If you want to really be active about your rights, thats awesome, but make sure thats the priority instead of your own ego. |
August 17, 2009, 03:50 PM | #144 |
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Last edited by Poseidon28; August 18, 2009 at 12:07 AM. Reason: Moderation... |
August 17, 2009, 04:10 PM | #145 | |
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August 17, 2009, 04:13 PM | #146 |
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LOL...
I know chris (guy with the rifle). Good guy. Very active with the Libertarian crowd. The guy interviewing him is Ernie Hancock of Freedom's Phoenix and is extremely politically active here in town. Two very upstanding gentlemen out protecting our rights today. |
August 17, 2009, 05:03 PM | #147 |
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This is Outstanding !
Just as I predicted in the other "man with a gun" thread, people are beginning to catch on to the idea that it is a good thing to remind our representatives from time to time that we still hold the wheel. I will also predict that we will see more of this type of activism ! True patriots.
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August 17, 2009, 05:10 PM | #148 | |
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August 17, 2009, 06:00 PM | #149 | |
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Pro or Con....it looks like it is catching on.....
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August 17, 2009, 06:13 PM | #150 |
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I've declined to further comment in this thread because I don't want to edge it towards demise.
I will say this; I have been swayed a certain degree. I'd even say a healthy degree. And while I haven't been active in the conversation since my last post, I will say that I greatly appreciate the conversation and this particular conversation has even further grown my respect of this community. - Joshua |
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