Clerk fired for having gun

Mark54g · December 30, 2005, 01:06 PM

quickly hired by competing store

http://www.cnn.com/video/partners/cl...ots.fired.affl

Mastrogiacomo · December 30, 2005, 08:00 PM

Seems to me that the cops are still missing the point. "Let us do our jobs..."

So...if they're not in the store at the time of the attempted armed robbery - then what? Good for him for packin and the new boss for hiring him. Nothing wrong with protecting your store and employees.

swmike · December 30, 2005, 08:08 PM

Let me see---

The Clerk followed the robber AFTER he was leaving the store

When the robber turned, the Clerk fired two quick shots (if his gestures mean anything, he sure wasn't aiming). Where did those rounds go, as the BG was not hit.

Was he in fear of his life AFTER the robbery went down and he started chasing? If he had killed the BG at that point, would he be justified??

Now for the Police Chief---

Lots' of Convenience Store Robberies but he sees no reason for Clerks to be armed. What is he doing to reduce the robberies?

And lastly, the Store Owner that hired him---

Will he be as happy if his new Clerk takes a shot at another "Robber" and hits a bystander instead. Wonder what his insurance rates will be then (if he has any now, that is).

shortydog · December 30, 2005, 08:35 PM

Quote:

When the robber turned

forgot to add " with the gun "

Quote:

Where did those rounds go

did you not have your speakers on?

Quote:

Was he in fear of his life AFTER the robbery went down and he started chasing? If he had killed the BG at that point, would he be justified??

the bad guy turned toward him with the firearm.

Quote:

Will he be as happy if his new Clerk takes a shot at another "Robber" and hits a bystander instead. Wonder what his insurance rates will be then (if he has any now, that is

you do know your on a pro 2nd gun board?

Ronny · December 30, 2005, 08:36 PM

One thing my CCW instructor made sure I never forgot: "In Defense of Life Only."

As much as I applaud this man for his courage, I still think he made a bad decision running out of the store in pursuit of the BG. Yes, adrenalin was hot in his blood, and sent him running after the robber. But psychological stress and its influence in split-second decision making is something we should all prepare for and train to handle; it comes with the responsiblity of carrying a firearm.

If the BG had started taking hostages or attacking people in the store, I'm sure the clerk would have stopped him -- and the people would be fortunate that there is brave civilian standing up for them in defense of life. However, that threat disappeared the moment the BG left the store. The clerk chased him for a different reason altogther, and I don't think it's because he was in fear of his life -- it was for the money.

shortydog · December 30, 2005, 09:36 PM

yes for the money!
so it's all right to let some scumb bag steal your livelyhood?
he is still in the progress of a crime when he is fleaing.
HE pulled the gun and took the chance to die.

USP45usp · December 30, 2005, 09:58 PM

Sigh... I don't think this world, or it's people, will ever understand.

(don't have a smilie for just a sad smile that isn't just a sad smile... hard to explain)......

Wayne

swmike · December 30, 2005, 10:08 PM

Yes Shortydog I realize I am on a pro-2nd Amendment/Gun Forum. After 40 + years of carrying one I also know what self defense is and what it is not. If someone IS robbing you you can empty all the rounds in your weapon into him as long as you don't stop to reload (the multiple rounds can be written off to the stress of the moment, a reload would be definite overkill). You can not, however, chase the robber and shoot him/her as the Self Defense aspect is now gone. You could be construed as the agressor. If you survive the initial encounter and the BG leaves, then let the cops do their job. Most of these mutts are dumb enough to try again and get caught in the act or lead law enforcement to their "lair". It is not your job.

Yes, he is a scumbag for choosing the life of crime but if YOU are convicted of some level of homicide for killing him (like you might have by chasing him down) you might find it very difficult getting a peaceful nights sleep while serving the time. Bubba and his friends might have a few parties planned for you in the evening.

rmagill · December 30, 2005, 10:49 PM

I could not watch the video so I don't know where this happened, but in PA, any citizen is legally allowed to effect an arrest of another if the suspect committed a felony in thier presense. They can use any force reasonably necessary to effect that arrest. Said citizen is legally allowed to persue the suspect and use said force as long as they are in fresh persut of the suspect. From reading the other posts here, it sounds as if he was.

In other words, if you see someone commit a felony, chase them to "arrest" them, and they pull a gun on you, I believe you would be justified in shooting them because you were acting within the law and the suspect threatened, by drawing the gun, to shoot you. FWIW, I am not saying to just shoot someone if they commited a felony with a firearm and are running, but from the sounds of it, in PA it would have been justified.

Mark54g · December 30, 2005, 11:11 PM

SWMike, if they are still coming and I have a 2nd mag, they are going to have a worse day than it already turned out to be for them. I won't stop just because my current magazine is empty. Stop the threat, worry about the law later.

I do think the choice of following the robber out of the store was STUPID, but this is not why they stated he was fired. That is why I posted this. He was fired for simply CARRYING the gun.

shortydog · December 31, 2005, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Yes Shortydog I realize I am on a pro-2nd Amendment/Gun Forum. After 40 + years of carrying one I also know what self defense is and what it is not. If someone IS robbing you you can empty all the rounds in your weapon into him as long as you don't stop to reload (the multiple rounds can be written off to the stress of the moment, a reload would be definite overkill). You can not, however, chase the robber and shoot him/her as the Self Defense aspect is now gone. You could be construed as the agressor. If you survive the initial encounter and the BG leaves, then let the cops do their job. Most of these mutts are dumb enough to try again and get caught in the act or lead law enforcement to their "lair". It is not your job.

Yes, he is a scumbag for choosing the life of crime but if YOU are convicted of some level of homicide for killing him (like you might have by chasing him down) you might find it very difficult getting a peaceful nights sleep while serving the time. Bubba and his friends might have a few parties planned for you in the evening.

you must be some sort of law enforcment and/or just an idiot.

Quote:

let the cops do their job.

go ahead they will protect you.

GHT · December 31, 2005, 09:55 AM

He stole your stuff?

Run him down and if he tries to shoot you while you are apprehending him, then respond.

Oh wait no... best let the cops do their job.

G

epr105 · December 31, 2005, 10:38 PM

The law is diffrent in every state. You should be aware of the law of the state that you are in and really think about what you are doing. In some states if you are not a LEO then it is not permissable to use deadly force once the suspect is fleeing or you are not in fear for your life. Some states say that you must retreat untill you can not retreat any longer before you use deadly force even if it is in your home. I do not feel sorry for someone who robs and gets shot I do feel sorry for the poor guy that shot him and will end up in court!
Know the law of the state you are in...................

Mannlicher · January 3, 2006, 06:55 PM

I see goofy stuff on all sides of the issue here.

Don P · January 3, 2006, 07:11 PM

My .02 worth. He managed to survive the first encounter why chase him down to try your luck again with nothing to gain. It's not HIS money, he IS NOT carrying a badge to go along with the gun. If forced to exchange fire inside the store and as stated before in some of the responces do so. If this clown wants to chase BG's he should apply and if accepted become a member of LE. Sounds to me the man has more balls than brains.

Twycross · January 3, 2006, 07:25 PM

Quote:

you must be some sort of law enforcment and/or just an idiot.

Methinks this is, or could be read as, an unwise equivocation.

Quote:

It's not HIS money,

But he is responsible for it.

Quote:

he IS NOT carrying a badge to go along with the gun.

So?

Quote:

let the cops do their job.

go ahead they will protect you.

The issue has nothing to do with 'protection.' It has to do with chasing down fleeing perps, who are not (at the moment) threatening anyone.

Quote:

I see goofy stuff on all sides of the issue here.

+1.

Don P · January 4, 2006, 06:07 PM

Twycross, going on your thought that he is responseable for the money, should a bank teller give chase after the bank is held up and to take it another step should the bank V.P. or Pres. give chase being that they too are accountable for the money. I think not and let us ass u me that all the above mentioned are CCWP. Sorry but I'm still saying he was wrong for giving chase.

December 30, 2005, 01:06 PM	#1
Mark54g Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2005 Location: NJ Posts: 1,265	Clerk fired for having gun quickly hired by competing store http://www.cnn.com/video/partners/cl...ots.fired.affl

December 30, 2005, 08:08 PM	#3
swmike Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2005 Location: Marysville, WA Posts: 670	Let me see--- The Clerk followed the robber AFTER he was leaving the store When the robber turned, the Clerk fired two quick shots (if his gestures mean anything, he sure wasn't aiming). Where did those rounds go, as the BG was not hit. Was he in fear of his life AFTER the robbery went down and he started chasing? If he had killed the BG at that point, would he be justified?? Now for the Police Chief--- Lots' of Convenience Store Robberies but he sees no reason for Clerks to be armed. What is he doing to reduce the robberies? And lastly, the Store Owner that hired him--- Will he be as happy if his new Clerk takes a shot at another "Robber" and hits a bystander instead. Wonder what his insurance rates will be then (if he has any now, that is). __________________ My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target. "In God we trust, all others are suspects." "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help". ____________________________________________

December 30, 2005, 08:36 PM	#5
Ronny Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2005 Posts: 206	Idol One thing my CCW instructor made sure I never forgot: "In Defense of Life Only." As much as I applaud this man for his courage, I still think he made a bad decision running out of the store in pursuit of the BG. Yes, adrenalin was hot in his blood, and sent him running after the robber. But psychological stress and its influence in split-second decision making is something we should all prepare for and train to handle; it comes with the responsiblity of carrying a firearm. If the BG had started taking hostages or attacking people in the store, I'm sure the clerk would have stopped him -- and the people would be fortunate that there is brave civilian standing up for them in defense of life. However, that threat disappeared the moment the BG left the store. The clerk chased him for a different reason altogther, and I don't think it's because he was in fear of his life -- it was for the money.

December 30, 2005, 10:08 PM	#8
swmike Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2005 Location: Marysville, WA Posts: 670	Yes Shortydog I realize I am on a pro-2nd Amendment/Gun Forum. After 40 + years of carrying one I also know what self defense is and what it is not. If someone IS robbing you you can empty all the rounds in your weapon into him as long as you don't stop to reload (the multiple rounds can be written off to the stress of the moment, a reload would be definite overkill). You can not, however, chase the robber and shoot him/her as the Self Defense aspect is now gone. You could be construed as the agressor. If you survive the initial encounter and the BG leaves, then let the cops do their job. Most of these mutts are dumb enough to try again and get caught in the act or lead law enforcement to their "lair". It is not your job. Yes, he is a scumbag for choosing the life of crime but if YOU are convicted of some level of homicide for killing him (like you might have by chasing him down) you might find it very difficult getting a peaceful nights sleep while serving the time. Bubba and his friends might have a few parties planned for you in the evening. __________________ My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target. "In God we trust, all others are suspects." "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help". ____________________________________________

January 3, 2006, 06:55 PM	#14
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	I see goofy stuff on all sides of the issue here. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

December 30, 2005, 08:00 PM	#2
Mastrogiacomo Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,297	Seems to me that the cops are still missing the point. "Let us do our jobs..." So...if they're not in the store at the time of the attempted armed robbery - then what? Good for him for packin and the new boss for hiring him. Nothing wrong with protecting your store and employees.

December 30, 2005, 09:36 PM	#6
shortydog Member Join Date: October 11, 2004 Location: ohio Posts: 75	yes for the money! so it's all right to let some scumb bag steal your livelyhood? he is still in the progress of a crime when he is fleaing. HE pulled the gun and took the chance to die.

December 30, 2005, 09:58 PM	#7
USP45usp Junior member Join Date: May 17, 2000 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 3,427	Sigh... I don't think this world, or it's people, will ever understand. (don't have a smilie for just a sad smile that isn't just a sad smile... hard to explain)...... Wayne

December 30, 2005, 10:49 PM	#9
rmagill Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 142	I could not watch the video so I don't know where this happened, but in PA, any citizen is legally allowed to effect an arrest of another if the suspect committed a felony in thier presense. They can use any force reasonably necessary to effect that arrest. Said citizen is legally allowed to persue the suspect and use said force as long as they are in fresh persut of the suspect. From reading the other posts here, it sounds as if he was. In other words, if you see someone commit a felony, chase them to "arrest" them, and they pull a gun on you, I believe you would be justified in shooting them because you were acting within the law and the suspect threatened, by drawing the gun, to shoot you. FWIW, I am not saying to just shoot someone if they commited a felony with a firearm and are running, but from the sounds of it, in PA it would have been justified.

December 30, 2005, 11:11 PM	#10
Mark54g Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2005 Location: NJ Posts: 1,265	SWMike, if they are still coming and I have a 2nd mag, they are going to have a worse day than it already turned out to be for them. I won't stop just because my current magazine is empty. Stop the threat, worry about the law later. I do think the choice of following the robber out of the store was STUPID, but this is not why they stated he was fired. That is why I posted this. He was fired for simply CARRYING the gun.

December 31, 2005, 09:55 AM	#12
GHT Member Join Date: October 26, 2005 Posts: 64	He stole your stuff? Run him down and if he tries to shoot you while you are apprehending him, then respond. Oh wait no... best let the cops do their job. G

December 31, 2005, 10:38 PM	#13
epr105 Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Location: Sullivan County, New York Posts: 241	The law is diffrent in every state. You should be aware of the law of the state that you are in and really think about what you are doing. In some states if you are not a LEO then it is not permissable to use deadly force once the suspect is fleeing or you are not in fear for your life. Some states say that you must retreat untill you can not retreat any longer before you use deadly force even if it is in your home. I do not feel sorry for someone who robs and gets shot I do feel sorry for the poor guy that shot him and will end up in court! Know the law of the state you are in...................

January 3, 2006, 07:11 PM	#15
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	2 nd chance? My .02 worth. He managed to survive the first encounter why chase him down to try your luck again with nothing to gain. It's not HIS money, he IS NOT carrying a badge to go along with the gun. If forced to exchange fire inside the store and as stated before in some of the responces do so. If this clown wants to chase BG's he should apply and if accepted become a member of LE. Sounds to me the man has more balls than brains.

January 4, 2006, 06:07 PM	#17
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Chasing BG's Twycross, going on your thought that he is responseable for the money, should a bank teller give chase after the bank is held up and to take it another step should the bank V.P. or Pres. give chase being that they too are accountable for the money. I think not and let us ass u me that all the above mentioned are CCWP. Sorry but I'm still saying he was wrong for giving chase.