Avoiding Flinching

[inchrisin]

I'm a new shooter and I'm sure that I flinch. My grouping is about 10 inches at 21 feet. I shoot a 357 J frame snubbie with 125gr ammo. It's about all the hotter I want to go with my round. I'm getting better and they all hit the paper. There isn't much consistency to the group. Time to tweak.

I'm curious to know how you practice NOT flinching. I practice dry-firing and want to make sure that this carries over into live ammo. It seems like the best mentality is to take a good stance, work on the front sight, and let the ammo run its course. I guess I see it more like the ammo works me, rather than I work the ammo. My job it to reset. If I want to get faster at shooting, I have to get faster at resetting--not at trying to prevent recoil by muscling through the shot.

I guess this thread could have gone in any forum, but I think that flinching has the biggest impact on shooting a pistol. Maybe I'll rethink this after firing a 30-06 or a BMG at the horizon.

Thoughts?

[GEARHEAD_ENG]

A J frame is a difficult handgun to master. You should practice shooting lots of light 38spl target loads until you can get good groups. Then step up to hot 357 rounds.

Try loading 2 fired cases at random in your cylinder along with loaded rounds. Give it a spin and close the cylinder so you don't know the order. Now when you come to the fired case you'll be able to see if you flinch.

[Slopemeno]

Shoot your existing gun with 148 grain hollow base wadcutters- until you can shoot without flinching.

[MCab]

I've got a flinch too that comes back if I haven't been practicing. Stupid central nervous system reacting to small explosions near my face . . .

Anyway, get some snap caps. Put one in your revolver and the rest live rounds. Spin the wheel without looking and fire at your target. That'll show your flinching and make you stop.

Other trick you can do is some dry firing but with a nickle on top of the frame (if it can be done). If you can fire without the nickle falling off, you're trigger squeeze is good.

[mete]

BTW you can't get a trigger job on a J frame like you can on a K frame.
On all flinc cases start from square #1. For the J use a 22 if you have one then as you remove the flinch go to firing 38 spc, then 38+P , then 357. For the J if you have a large hand a better grip would be a thought . Fire each round concentrating on smooth trigger pull only !

[Slamfire]

I don't know anyone who does not flinch, given enough rounds. Light recoiling guns with minimal muzzle blast take the longest before the flinch reflex kicks in me. I have been shooting Bullseye Pistol this year and my 22LR scores are always much better than my 45 ACP scores. It is due to the flinch. The heavier recoiling gun beats me up, even though I am trying to use the lightest loads I can in the thing.

When I shoot at the range I will start off with a M10-5 S&W in 38 Spl. This pistol and cartridge are wonderfully accurate and mild recoiling. I will shoot around 100 rounds, then go to a 357, 44 Spl, or 45 LC. My accuracy will be good, but I can tell, the occasional flinch kicks in. Then, as a final finish, I will shoot a 44 Mag. By the end of 50 rounds I am bucking and pushing. I quit when I figure out that I cannot control the flinch anymore.

If you really want to work in trigger control, try a nice 22LR. Low recoil, low noise, a lot cheaper than a centerfire, and very accurate.

This is my Bullseye .22LR. It is a tack driver



This is a bud's 22LR. I could only afford to take pictures.

[g.willikers]

One way to help reduce flinching is to focus on the task, rather than the process.
For shooting, that translates to focusing on putting the bullets where you want and forgetting about the gun.
A problem with general plinking and practicing, it's all too easy to pay too much attention to the gun and the process of shooting, instead of the results.
Getting involved with some form of competition can help a lot.
Especially the kind that involves a measure of both speed and accuracy.
Having to focus on accomplishing something takes precedence.
You will be too busy to flinch.
If you don't want to get involved in organized stuff, do the same things on your own.
Just running against the clock can help.

Another method is to use targets that represent a threat.
Zombies are good, as are bad guys, especially those with a hostage.
Have someone yell a warning, like "Get 'em, quick!"
Again, it will require a hard focus on the target, speed, accuracy and no time for flinching.
Multiple targets are even better.
Try and see.

[P5 Guy]

While some can handle magnum ammunition in tiny guns most cannot.
It is my opinion the biggest mistake Smith & Wesson made was chambering their 'J' and 'K' frame revolvers in 357MAG.
A stout 38SPL +p in a revolver with a short barrel is about the best for the platform. Heavy bullets, for me, have a more manageable recoil impulse.

[T. O'Heir]

"...a 357 J frame snubbie with 125gr ammo..." Isn't really an entry level revolver. Even with .38 Special target loads, but not as much. However, if you're using the stock grips, change 'em to Pachmayr's. Fits the hand better, absorbs recoil and don't cost a fortune.
"...If I want to get faster at shooting..." First you need to get good.
Quickest way to find out if you are flinching is to have a buddy load with one or more chambers empty and hand you the revolver. Shoot as per normal. If you jerk the revolver from anticipating the recoil it'll show.

[AK103K]

Id suggest shooting something else until youre sure you have things down, and can place them where you want. J frames arent the easiest to shoot with, and do require some dedication to be proficient with them.

Ive never been a fan of using reduced loads and then loading with something hotter. Especially in a gun you intend to use for something serious. You need to practice with what you intend to use, or something close to it.

If your J frame is DA, dont thumb cock it, learn to shoot it DAO, and I think youll see things begin to improve just by doing that. DAO shooting forces you to focus on the sights, and everything else just follows. Shooting DAO is what you want to be doing with a revolver anyway, and should be training to do, if its your choice for a carry gun.

Dry firing is pretty much essential practice anyway, and can be a big help here. One trick I use if I find myself flinching, or Im shooting a new/different gun for the first time is, to tell myself thats exactly what Im doing, dry firing, and then just shoot the gun, with no expectation of recoil or noise, simply focusing on doing what Im supposed to be doing, to break the shot. Focusing on that front sight, and holding the alignment, is really all you should be thinking about, and is the most critical point, as thats where the bullets is going when the shot breaks.

[jimbob86]

Cures for flinching that I have successfully used with my kids:

1. Start with low recoil loads..... .22's at first, then light .38 target loads and master the process with each.


2. Reactive targets, so the shooter is looking forward to an immediate reward, instead of getting whacked with recoil.

3. Ball and Dummy drill. Have a buddy load the gun with a mix of live rounds and snap caps, and hand it to you. Shoot the gun at the target as normal. Flinches will be obvious if the gun jumps on a snap cap.

4. For mastering the long, heavy DA trigger pull of your gun, get a Nagant revolver, and dry fire that. After cranking through THAT for a few months, anything else will seem light as a feather.

[Erno86]

Fingertipless padded shooting gloves might help.

Paul Schoch's magazine article - The Zen of Shooting --- Has helped increase the quality of my trigger time immensely.

Link:

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/a...en-of-shooting

[Kosh75287]

Despite the other recommendations of other revolvers and autos to cure your flinch, I'll assume that you only have regular access to your revolver. To make it more shootable, the recoil (and performance) of the round must be temporarily reduced.

Look for the Winchester White Box .38 Spl. ammunition with the 130gr. FMJ projectile. It recoils about the same as the 148gr. wadcutter loads, and is generally less expensive.

The drill I'VE used with great success is to load the cylinder with one live round, close the cylinder, and concentrate on squeezing the trigger in such a way that the front sight doesn't move. If the you hear a "click", the front sight and sight picture should not move. Go slowly, always working on a motionless front sight if there is not a live round in the chamber. Start out at 20 ft/7yards/some close distance. When you have fired 10 live rounds, with 40 motionless front sights after the click, look at your group. It should be much smaller. When you can do this 10/10 times, load the cylinder with two rounds (even better, get someone to load it for you, out of your vision), and try again. When you have done the same thing with 2 rounds in the cylinder that you did with 1 round in the cylinder, go to 3 rounds and repeat. Then go to 4 rounds, then a full cylinder. When you are shooting the same tight groups with a full cylinder that you did with only one round in the cylinder, THEN extend your range.

When you can put 5 of 5 rounds in an 8" circle (6" is better) at 25 yards, increase the power of your practice ammo. When you can do this with your chosen defense ammunition, concentrate on shooting faster, always staying within the 8" circle.

This will seem like a crashing bore, but it WILL fix the flinch. It is unlikely that you will go from 1 in the cylinder to a full cylinder all in one range session. For one thing, the concentration involved in keeping everything motionless on empty cylinders can be initially very tiring. But you WILL get there.
This whole procedure is more complicated to describe than to actually execute, so don't be daunted by the laborious description of the procedure. Tenacity is a very important thing, in practice, AND in defense. Cultivate all of it you can. Sometimes, the victor in a conflict is the one most willing to stay in the conflict until the adversary is dispatched.

Good luck.

[Erno86]

For my big bore pistol {454 Super Redhawk}, I limit the number of rounds {20 due to the immense recoil} I shoot at each shooting session --- You might want to try something similar --- while shooting a J-frame in 357. I do like to shoot 38 Special wadcutters in my S&W M14 snubbie --- even though they keyhole on occasion.

[swedish champion]

An issue that re-emerges for me just about annually if I don't consciously address it. My solution is a quiet area, away from anyone, a soda, some lunch. I set myself up to relax. I bring my HOTTEST pistol rounds, breathe easy, imagine I'm at a beach in Hawaii. I psychologically prepare myself for the weapon to mis/dry fire, gripping it lightly. I let my loose hands roll back on their own under the heavy recoil. One to two hundred rounds until it isn't freakin me out anymore. I find recoil to flow away effortlessly if I can forget its coming. Casual stance, grip, pull, and mindset. Once I synthesized them, I can carry this into later sessions. I re-establish it whenever I can, on a sunny day after work. It really puts me in control of my firearms at the instant of hammer drop. It works for me, kinda...zen-ee i guess.

[DPI7800]

I suggest to find a good coach and get some one on one instruction. I'm sure there will those that I'll say there is no need but it can help immensely. But if you do shop around. There are lots of instructors to choose from these days some are stuck in the 1970's way of training while others are more in tune with what it really takes to run a gun fast and accurate.

[Bluestarlizzard]

One way to help reduce flinching is to focus on the task, rather than the process.
For shooting, that translates to focusing on putting the bullets where you want and forgetting about the gun.
A problem with general plinking and practicing, it's all too easy to pay too much attention to the gun and the process of shooting, instead of the results.
Getting involved with some form of competition can help a lot.
Especially the kind that involves a measure of both speed and accuracy.
Having to focus on accomplishing something takes precedence.
You will be too busy to flinch.
If you don't want to get involved in organized stuff, do the same things on your own.
Just running against the clock can help.

Another method is to use targets that represent a threat.
Zombies are good, as are bad guys, especially those with a hostage.
Have someone yell a warning, like "Get 'em, quick!"
Again, it will require a hard focus on the target, speed, accuracy and no time for flinching.
Multiple targets are even better.
Try and see.

another to add to g.willikers list of ideas,

play "chase" if your range allows such things. Tennis balls, golf balls, soccer ball, something that rolls with the goal of keeping it on the move.

[Model12Win]

I regularly fire Buffalo Bore 125 grain .357 ammo in my S&W AirLite®, usually several boxes in one range session. It doesn't bother me at all, and I can put all rounds into a nickel-sized group at 10 yards rapid fire.

Said no one ever.

OP, get some 148 grain wadcutter for training AND defense. They won't kick bad, and they'll cut the flesh instead of poking through it like a ball or even JHP round will. They are devastating stoppers, but have minimal kickback and flash.

[Andy Blozinski]

There was discussion of shooting instruction on another thread that helped me decrease my flinching problems. I still flinch, but not as badly and my groups are better.
The advice had to do with basic shooting accuracy, but has a direct correlation to flinching. Basically...you pull the trigger and completely ignore when the pistol is going to go off. You just keep your sights on the target as best you can and keep smoothly depressing the trigger and do NOT try to anticipate it firing. Just concentrate on keeping your sights on target and keep depressing the trigger. Ignore the fact that it will eventually go off....but don't ignore proper grip and anything else.
Interestingly, if you are mentally thinking about the moment the pistol will go off, not only might you flinch, but your trigger finger also changes what it's doing and you might pull the weapon.

[JohnKSa]

Try to watch for the muzzle flash. You should almost always see it.

[Radny97]

All good advice here, especially starting with lower power loads or 22lr, recognizing that and small frame revolvers with full house 125 gn 357 mag is a serious handful for anyone and not really a beginner load.
One thing I might add is examining your grip. Look at the height of your grip (I.e how high is the web of your hand on the gun). Also examine your grip strength. A very firm grip with both hands can seriously help to reduce flinching. Get to the point that when you pick up a gun for whatever reason you naturally grip it very firmly. This has helped me.
That and shoot thousands of rounds of 22lr from a comparable gun.

[Boogershooter]

They make several different good rests for pistols. Shooting on one of these will tell you how bad your flinch is much more than just standing and shooting. I wouldn't recommend this at a busy range but if you have learned your trigger well enough you can close your eyes after you are on target. I don't know why this helps me with both rifle and pistol but I sure seem to be able to feel my flaws more. Another thing may be better hearing protection. I don't know if this is true but alot of people say flinching can be from the boom as much or more than recoil.

[Erno86]

Lock your wrist or wrists down at a 45 degree angle, which will make it harder for you to dip the gun. Everybody dips sometimes...it just a matter of frequency and the amount of dip angle.

You'll have to realize that the gun is not going to hurt you. Ask a person to look to see whether you blink your eyes at the moment the shot breaks --- If you do --- you still have a mild flinch.

If you still flinch...go back to a 22, so you can work out your flinch; or get a heavier pistol that will mitigate recoil somewhat.

The modern Isosceles position helps you control the gun. You have to "treat your trigger finger as it's own entity."

Warm-up trigger time, usually takes about 15 minutes for a shooter to get in the groove --- So maybe warm-up with a 22 --- That's what I usually do...when I get some trigger time at the range.

Follow through with your trigger finger --- Bury it at the rear of the trigger guard.

[kobes31]

Has anyone found shooting speed to be relevant? I seem to have trouble with the flinch if I'm trying slow, controlled precision but am nearly always more accurate shooting quicker and to multiple targets. Make any sense?

Merry Christmas all!

[9x45]

Yup, shooting a couple of rounds at a static target is ok to check function and point of aim is point of impact, other than that, go fast.