NICS checks for gunsmith work.

[twhidd]

I've been working a part time job at a new gun store in my area. Recently the owner has concluded that we have been handling gunsmith work incorrectly. Now his policy is to have the customer fill out the 4473 transfer form and perform NICS check before we can return their gun to them. This is after our gunsmith has performed services. Now I'm no FFL dealer, but I've been dealing with guns and gun stores and gunsmiths for over 20 years. I have never been asked to do any transfer forms or background checks for gunsmith work. Is this correct procedure or is this just some more ignorance on the part of our newbie store owner?

[maestro pistolero]

There is no 'transfer' when the gun is returned to the current owner. The boss is mistaken.

[twhidd]

That was my feeling exactly. I have explained to him about my past experiences with gunsmiths and even shipping guns to FFLs or manufacturers for work and never had to do any such paper work. He explains that away as a "loophole" in the law and insists he is doing it right.

[dogtown tom]

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....0.1.2.3.8.1.4

§ 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473: Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom received.

[twhidd]

@ Dogtown... Thanks for the link. I'll forward that on.

Merry Christmas guys!

[Webleymkv]

As I understand it, the only time, according to federal law, that a 4473 and NICS check would be required in the case of a gunsmith returning a firearm to a customer would be if the receiver/frame had to be replaced. This is because the receiver/frame is the part which legally constitutes a firearm so replacing the receiver/frame, even if every other part is left alone, is the same a transferring a completely different gun in the eyes of the law.

The thought process, as I understand it, is that so long as the frame/receiver is the same, the owner of the gun has already likely gone through a NICS check when he/she bought it. Going through the whole process over again for a gun you've already bought is considered, and correctly so, as redundant and unnecessary. If the owner of the gun store still has doubt, I'm sure a call to the BATFE would clear up any questions on the matter.

[Bill DeShivs]

Webly,
Read it again "or a replacement firearm..."

[maestro pistolero]

As an aside, when Ruger repaired my LCP, it involved a frame change where the new frame had the same serial number. No transfer was required.

[twhidd]

You may have noticed my use of the word "ignorance" in my original post. That was on purpose. It the short few months that this store has been open and in the time that I've been employed there, I've come to realize just how well that word applies to this man. His lack of knowledge about guns and all things gun related is completely amazing and utterly frustrating to me. He's also the kind of person who doesn't like to be proven wrong, so I may be spinning my wheel by pointing out this mistake. Every day that I'm there I find myself shaking my head at some of the things that I hear and see.

Don't get me wrong, I make no claims to being any kind of expert. I'm far from it. But I will say that after more than twenty years of shooting, trading, buying, selling, collecting, reloading, attending gun shows, and reading publications that I have attained a great deal of general knowledge about the subject. Not to mention the years that I have been a member on this forum (which is a wealth of knowledge in itself).

Maybe I'm just expecting too much. This job is only temporary for me, as I have plans for more schooling after the first of the year. I would really like to see the store do well, because he has a good opportunity and a good location. But for now I guess I'll just shake my head.

[maestro pistolero]

All you can do is point out the error. If he's that thick-headed this is hardly going to be the last issue that demonstrates it. Let's hope his ignorance doesn't get him or someone else in trouble.

[Spats McGee]

MP is right. All you can do is point out the error. You can't make the boss believe you. I will say, though, that I would be pretty put out if I took my gun in for work, only to be told that I had to go through another NICS check to re-take possession of my firearm. Unless the shop did absolutely unbelievable work, it'd be the last time any gun of mine went to that shop for work.

[AH.74]

The NICS should tell him up front when he calls to make a check that it's not necessary to transfer the gun back to the owner. Does he transfer it in his book when he takes it in for repair work?

There is no way I would accept that. If they wanted to run a check for me to pick up my own gun from repair, when I was the one to personally drop it off, I would be calling the BATF from my cell phone to set them straight.

He's trying to bump up the costs to the customer for no good reason.

[MTT TL]

I would make sure the boss put up a large sign and informed customers of this (Or not). I would then start looking for work at a different shop as he drives his customers away one at time.

[twhidd]

He brought this up just yesterday. I've forwarded on the info provided above and will wait to see what happens. As far as how we perform our NICS checks, they're all done online. The only time we call is if the system is down.

This is just another in a growing list of things that leave me wondering how long he will stay in business.

[dogtown tom]

AH.74 The NICS should tell him up front when he calls to make a check that it's not necessary to transfer the gun back to the owner. Does he transfer it in his book when he takes it in for repair work?

Nope.
NICS has no idea if the gun being transferred was at the dealer for gunsmithing.

The FBI NICS is for background checks only, they aren't the ATF and have no knowledge of ATF regulations.....only the Brady law.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by AH.74

The NICS should tell him up front when he calls to make a check that it's not necessary to transfer the gun back to the owner. Does he transfer it in his book when he takes it in for repair work?

If a gunsmith keeps a firearm overnight or longer, it goes into his bound book. He is still NOT required to have a new 4473 to return the firearm to the owner. He just transfers it out of his bound book back to the owner.

[twhidd]

If a gunsmith keeps a firearm overnight or longer, it goes into his bound book. He is still NOT required to have a new 4473 to return the firearm to the owner. He just transfers it out of his bound book back to the owner.

The gunsmith is not the FFL holder (and I seriously question if he's really even a gunsmith, but I digress). He often takes guns home to "work" on them. What are the procedures and logistics for that?

[AH.74]

If a gunsmith keeps a firearm overnight or longer, it goes into his bound book. He is still NOT required to have a new 4473 to return the firearm to the owner. He just transfers it out of his bound book back to the owner.

Not in my case, unless they're logging it in and then back out before I ever see it.

When I've gone back to pick up guns after minor work which has taken more than a few days for them to get to, they've just checked the receipt, given me the gun and I pay and go on my way.

[vranasaurus]

The only time you have to do a 4473 for a return of a firearm is if you pawn it and then go to get it back.

Otherwise no 4473/ background check is necessary. I have sent a few guns off for repair/refinishing and they can and are sent directly back to me.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by twhidd

The gunsmith is not the FFL holder (and I seriously question if he's really even a gunsmith, but I digress). He often takes guns home to "work" on them. What are the procedures and logistics for that?

Guns left overnight or longer are in the custody of the FFL in whose bound book they are recorded. The FFL cannot allow them to leave the premises in the possession of someone else without doing a transfer.

Here's what the BATFE FAQ has to say about gunsmiths:

Originally Posted by BATFE

Q: Does a gunsmith need to enter in a permanent “bound book” record every firearm received for adjustment or repair?

If a firearm is brought in for repairs and the owner waits while it is being repaired or if the gunsmith is able to return the firearm to the owner during the same business day, it is not necessary to list the firearm in the “bound book” as an “acquisition.” If the gunsmith has possession of the firearm from one business day to another or longer, the firearm must be recorded as an “acquisition” and a “disposition” in the permanent "bound book" record.

Q: Is an ATF Form 4473 required when a gunsmith returns a repaired firearm?

No, provided the firearm is returned to the person from whom it was received.

[27 CFR 478.124(a)]

Q: May a gunsmith make immediate repairs at locations other than his or her place of business?

Yes.

Q: May a licensed gunsmith receive an NFA firearm for purposes of repair?

Yes, for the sole purpose of repair and subsequent return to its owner. It is suggested that the owner obtain permission from ATF for the transfer by completing and mailing ATF Form 5 (5320.5) to the NFA Branch and receive approval prior to the delivery. The gunsmith should do the same prior to returning the firearm.

Only the face of the form needs to be completed in each instance. ATF Forms 5 may be obtained from the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch. ATF Form 5 is also available on the internet at www.atf.gov

Q: Is a licensed gunsmith required to comply with the requirements to give written notification to handgun transferees and post signs on juvenile handgun possession?

The requirement that written notification on juvenile handgun possession be given to a non-licensee to whom a handgun is delivered applies to all Federal firearms licensees. It applies to the return of handguns to their owners, as well as to their sale. Thus, a gunsmith who repairs or customizes a non-licensee’s handgun must provide the notification to the non-licensee when the handgun is returned. The sign posting requirement also applies to gunsmiths, unless the gunsmith only disposes of handguns to non-licensees who do not appear at the gunsmith’s licensed premises, for example, when repaired handguns are shipped to non-licensees.

[18 U.S.C. 922(x), 27 CFR 478.103]

Q: Is a licensed gunsmith’s return of repaired or customized firearms to their owners subject to the Brady law, including the provision for making background checks on transferees?

No, but it is unlawful to transfer a firearm to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person is a felon or is within any other category of person prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms. (See also question “A firearm is delivered to a licensee by an unlicensed individual for the purpose of repair. Is the return of the repaired firearm subject to the requirements of the Brady law? Would the transfer of a replacement firearm from the licensee to the owner of the damaged firearm be subject to the requirements of the Brady law?”)

[18 U.S.C. 922(d), 27 CFR 478.32(d)]

[AH.74]

Guns left overnight or longer are in the custody of the FFL in whose bound book they are recorded. The FFL cannot allow them to leave the premises in the possession of someone else without doing a transfer.


If the gunsmith has possession of the firearm from one business day to another or longer, the firearm must be recorded as an “acquisition” and a “disposition” in the permanent "bound book" record.

Q: Is an ATF Form 4473 required when a gunsmith returns a repaired firearm?

No, provided the firearm is returned to the person from whom it was received.

[27 CFR 478.124(a)]

This part covers my experience- no transfer, even if held for several days.

[JohnKSa]

The gunsmith is not the FFL holder (and I seriously question if he's really even a gunsmith, but I digress). He often takes guns home to "work" on them.

The FFL cannot allow them to leave the premises in the possession of someone else without doing a transfer.

This might prevent the FFL from allowing the gunsmith from taking a gun home to work on unless he does a transfer to the gunsmith.

[AirForceShooter]

Another words your boss is ripping his customers off.

How much does he charge for a $5.00 phone call?


AFS

[twhidd]

We don't charge a customer to run a background check unless it's an out of state transfer. Plus, we don't call them in. We do them all online.

[dogtown tom]

AirForceShooter Another words your boss is ripping his customers off.

How much does he charge for a $5.00 phone call?

FBI NICS is a free service and a toll free call....YOUR state is ripping you off by charging for a service the FBI provides for free.