|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
June 4, 2014, 09:33 PM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 12, 2002
Location: The same state as Mordor.
Posts: 5,568
|
primer seating depth, flush with base, causing misfire problem?
The last couple outings with my Bersa .45, I've seen a number of light strike failure to fire problems. Restriking (it's a DA/SA, so this happens naturally) did not make these fire. Firing pin protrusion and function appears to be n ormal. These were all my handloads. I did not have any ("precious!" and expensive) factory loaded .45 with me, nor a different .45 handgun.
I noticed that the primers on these were flush with the case bottom, and not the few thousandths below flush that the reloading manuals recommend. Possible or likely that this was the problem? These were loaded in a Lee Classic Turret using the on press priming arm. There is no way that I can see to adjust priming depth.
__________________
"As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. " |
June 4, 2014, 09:57 PM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 20, 2010
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1,074
|
Cup hardness varies with CCI being the hardest, Federal being the softest. My 1911 has been smithed when I was enrolled in TSJC Jr College Gunsmithing program in Trinidad Colorado, my instructor that taught the 1911 class wanted me to remove 3 coils from the hammer spring to lightened the trigger. I thought this might be a source of FTF issue later, as I recalled I did remove 1 coil only and it hasn't caused any problems. With that said if your using CCI primers you might try Federal, you might add a primer pocket uniformer to square up the primer pocket and cut to a uniform depth which may cure your problem. If your primer pockets haven't been uniformed your primer may not be seating fully to the bottom of the primer pocket, the firing pin may drive the primer a little deeper and some of the energy of the firing pin is lost.. William
Last edited by William T. Watts; June 7, 2014 at 09:48 PM. |
June 4, 2014, 10:14 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 12, 2002
Location: The same state as Mordor.
Posts: 5,568
|
Primers, CCI, I think.
Brass is whatever motley assortment I've accumulated over the years.
__________________
"As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. " Last edited by lee n. field; June 5, 2014 at 06:31 AM. |
June 5, 2014, 06:41 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Posts: 1,411
|
The hardest primers I have used have been CCI and Tula. With certain guns they have cause problems. Federal, as mentioned, sets off the easiest. Winchester and Remington seem to be in the middle. If you can find some Federal I suggest trying them. If not, try Winchester followed by Remington. S&B primer pockets are pretty tight and do need some effort to seat then all the way. As mentioned fixing the primer pockets will cure that problem fast.
|
June 8, 2014, 05:30 PM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 12, 2002
Location: The same state as Mordor.
Posts: 5,568
|
Primers are Winchester.
I think I see what may be going on. I've been using a Lyman shellholder on the Classic Turret. (When I started reloading in the '90s, I bought a set of Lyman shell holders.) I suspect there may be a dimensional difference such that the case sitting in the Lyman shell holder is too high to prime reliably. This is the only round I load on that press that uses large primers. I have not had this problem with anything else that I load (.38, 9mm, .40).
__________________
"As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. " |
June 8, 2014, 06:02 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 26, 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 1,730
|
Shell holder are standard and interchangable. Try cleaning the firing pin channel. Low velocity of the firing pin is the cause of most misfires. I think you model also has a automatic firing pin safety that if not correct may slow the pin. Firing some factory ammo is a good idea. Trying a different brand of primer might not be a bad idea, as Win. has had problems with primers lately.
|
June 9, 2014, 02:33 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,324
|
I seat my primers .003--.005" below flush.
As specified.
__________________
. "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo" |
June 9, 2014, 02:42 PM | #8 |
Staff
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,022
|
I think Weshoot2 is right. Especially if you've reloaded these several times and have yet to clean the primer pockets out. If that crud gets thick enough, it can cushion the primer some. So, every once in awhile it may be worth decapping separately and scraping them out. But more important, by seating shallow, you are asking your firing pin to finish seating the primer before the remaining energy can ignite the primer, and that's a recipe for failure to fire.
For reliability, primers should be a minimum of 0.002" below flush to a maximum of 0.006" below flush according to Olin's (Winchester) military primer specs. What you are actually trying to do is get an optimal amount of squeeze between the tip of the primer anvil and the inside of the cup preloading the primer mix. This is called setting the bridge (thickness of the amount of priming mix between those two pieces of metal). In practical terms, if you don't have a press that controls this, it just means seating hard. You can read about it here.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; June 18, 2014 at 07:29 AM. |
June 9, 2014, 02:59 PM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 26, 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 1,730
|
Primers: It Don't Go Bang
Primers: It Don't Go Bang http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...t-go-bang.html
|
June 9, 2014, 03:56 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 12, 2002
Location: The same state as Mordor.
Posts: 5,568
|
Lee's tech support emailed back. He doesn't think there'd be enough difference to matter.
In the past I have seen where shell holders, though interchangeable in the sense that cartridges fit and they fit in the slot in the ram , may have a different enough height to matter in priming. Yesterday I loaded up 60 rounds, 20 each primed on the press, with a hand prime tool, and a ram prime die. Enough to run at least a magazine of each through my two .45s, to hopefully narrow down if it's a gun problem or an ammo/reloading problem.
__________________
"As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. " |
June 9, 2014, 07:34 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 5,261
|
I highly recommend reading Hummer70's article on Primers: It Don't Go Bang, the link is provided above.
What Hummer shows is that the firearm industry has lost talent and technology knowledge through cost cutting. They are producing firearms with ignition systems that have insufficient energy to ignite primers that are on the high end of the insensitivity scale. This may be the problem, and if it is, you will need to use the most sensitive pistol primers on the market: Federal primers. Allan Jones, of CCI, states that the most common reason for misfires is an improperly (high) seated primer. The anvil must be firmly seated and the primer cake pushed into the anvil. Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All-Important Primer by Allan Jones , Shooting Times, January 4th, 2011 http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01...#ixzz34BxEBqS4
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading. |
June 10, 2014, 11:23 AM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,432
|
I used to seat by depth, aiming for .003" - 005" below flush. Started having ignition problems with a new GP100 and Tula primers. Reset my ram prime to seat by feel. Now some primers will go as deep as .010" below flush when seated by feel, but they all fire.
|
June 10, 2014, 03:06 PM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 13,805
|
I also use the Ram Prime with my Hand Press. Just seat until you feel good resistance. If one is dead flush I give it another push so it is below. Thousands and thousands fired with no FTF, except when I stupidly used Wolf.
|
June 10, 2014, 06:50 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 22, 2009
Location: NC
Posts: 244
|
Had a similar issue. Fully seating cleared up the problem. Thread here:http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536492
|
June 11, 2014, 04:47 PM | #15 |
Staff
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,022
|
Agree with the above. Sounds like Hammerhead has some out-of-spec primers from Tula, though their spec is not required by any magic law to be the same as Olin's.
The statement by Lee that flush is OK is gross over-generalization. He can't know your particular gun's mainspring strength or its firing pin protrusion. Hummer90 is a former Aberdeen Proving Grounds Test Director and Accident Investigator, and knows what he's talking about in this regard.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle |
June 12, 2014, 11:13 AM | #16 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 12, 2002
Location: The same state as Mordor.
Posts: 5,568
|
Quote:
It's been my practice since the late '90s when I started has been to seat a few thousandths below flush, like the Lyman manual I learned from recommends. Back when my Lyman ram prime die was my only priming tool, I did, once, run into a situation where there was enough dimensional difference vertically between a Lyman and (IIRC) an RCBS shell holder to make a difference. I have a set of Lee shellholders on order, in case that's what's going on here. ------------edit to add------------ OK, I see my error. Lee the company, not "lee n. field" the interwebz psuedonym. This is exactly what Lee TS said: Quote:
__________________
"As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. " Last edited by lee n. field; June 13, 2014 at 07:51 AM. |
||
June 12, 2014, 03:50 PM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,324
|
Dillon 650 or by hand
LEE sucks.
Tula primers are suspect. Below flush, .003--.005" ensures firing.
__________________
. "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo" |
June 15, 2014, 07:14 PM | #18 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 12, 2002
Location: The same state as Mordor.
Posts: 5,568
|
Quote:
So, I definitely need to look into the priming. It's complicated by the fact that I discovered, a couple days ago, a hammer/sear problem with the Bersa. I can push off the cocked hammer with my thumb, so that it falls off the sear. So, that needs itself to get worked on.
__________________
"As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. " Last edited by lee n. field; June 15, 2014 at 08:04 PM. |
|
June 16, 2014, 07:54 AM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 27, 2014
Location: southeastern Vermont,USA
Posts: 325
|
i prime by feel and seat slightly bellow flush,dont know the exact distance below flush but it works.never have misfires
federal primers are always a good choice |
June 16, 2014, 11:03 AM | #20 |
Junior Member
Join Date: February 24, 2010
Posts: 10
|
During all my years of reloading, since 1967, I never had a ftf from primer seating. I always used a bench press and put them in with authority. In the last couple of years I have used a hand priming tool and have experienced several primer failures. It truely makes a lot of difference. Another issue observed is high primer which will take a revolver out of the fight. Do to be safe, seat all primers on the pocket bottom and make sure you're getting a good primer strike.
|
June 18, 2014, 07:23 AM | #21 |
Staff
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,022
|
Lee n. field,
When reread, I found I had read your report of Lee's response too quickly, and took it to mean they were claiming flush primers were OK when they actually meant the Lyman shell holder should be OK. Sorry about that. Note that while seating below flush is the common measure, primer pockets have a tolerance of about ±0.001" in depth, plus the primers themselves have a tolerance in height that includes the anvil feet. If you want to double-check your results, you can measure the depth of your primer pockets and the height of your primers, subtract the latter from the former and add 0.002" for small primers and 0.003" for large primers (Federal's recommendation) to get the total number of thousandths below flush that is ideal for that particular case and primer. In other words, the primer anvil feet touch down on the bottom of the primer pocket, then you compress it by 0.002" or 0.003", depending on primer size. That exact figure is useful to know for precision rifle shooting with depth uniformed primer pockets that may need to be a thousandth or two deeper than commercial standards. But it doesn't hurt even the handgun loader to at least work out the average for their brass and primer lots, and to see their average result meets that computed average, ±0.001". Manufacturers don't do any more than that, and it works for them. Tula primer cups are similar to CCI cups during the 1980's, before CCI revamped their process to remove cup burrs. They can seat with significant extra resistance, making them more likely to be left high, even when seating force seemed more than adequate. My Dillon Square Deal, which is my permanent .45 ACP press, couldn't seat 1980's CCI primers and can't seat Tula primers reliably. But both Slamfire and I have noted in the past that their rifle primers frequently produce the lowest velocity extreme spreads we can get, beating even Federal match primers in many instances in .308 and .30-06 and .223. So they are worth experimenting with if you can seat them correctly.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; June 18, 2014 at 07:28 AM. |
June 19, 2014, 06:43 PM | #22 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 12, 2002
Location: The same state as Mordor.
Posts: 5,568
|
Quote:
I got a Lee shell holder. It's essentially identical to the Lyman I was using. And, I realized I was thinking about it wrong. With no case in the shell holder, the ram bottoms out when the shell holder hits the priming arm, which is a quarter inch or so below where it stops when a cartridge is present and the priming arm cup hits it. I've measured a small sample so far. Primer pockets do show variance. Primers themselves (Winchester in this case, which I am rapidly running out of), much less variance. And, I'm still seating to flush, with a ram prime die able to push it a few thousanths below flush. Possibly a leverage issue, what with the priming being done at the bottom of the ram travel?
__________________
"As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. " |
|
June 19, 2014, 08:05 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 30, 2012
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Posts: 1,740
|
Seat them till they hit bottom of pocket. Don't worry about measurements or how deep they are seated. I prime off press with a hand held primer tool so I can feel when they bottom out . With a press I couldn't fell this as well and with the compound linkage , at times, would crush a primers.
Gary |
June 19, 2014, 08:44 PM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 14, 2012
Posts: 331
|
Curious if it does it on both the pistol and rifle primers? On your Lee press, is the bar the primer rides pushed down or worn? Is the primer arm notch worn?
|
June 20, 2014, 06:23 PM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 12, 2002
Location: The same state as Mordor.
Posts: 5,568
|
The press is about a year and a half old. I have not loaded anything but pistol rounds on it (.38, 9mm, .40, & .45 ACP). .45 ACP is the only round that uses large primers. The priming arm does not look bent, worn or damaged.
__________________
"As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. " |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|