|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
June 6, 2013, 01:58 PM | #1 |
Member
Join Date: January 26, 2013
Posts: 40
|
Miss HSc 703857 - i am stunned...3 cuts on grip plate???
Look at this beauty, got it today - i dont now what to say...
The finish, the holster - almost brand new... I think pistol, holster and mags has always been together since 1941... NOTICE: the three cuts om the left grip plate high..., what could that mean??? This is one of the most... Thank you |
June 6, 2013, 02:00 PM | #2 |
Member
Join Date: January 26, 2013
Posts: 40
|
Black and white photo
nice in B and W
|
June 6, 2013, 03:07 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 17, 2013
Location: Louisville, KY, USA
Posts: 273
|
Agreed, nicer in black and white. Nice-looking little gun. As to the notches...
__________________
"Don't let macho be your epitaph." ---Ed Lovette |
June 6, 2013, 03:36 PM | #4 |
Member
Join Date: January 26, 2013
Posts: 40
|
Could be rate of kills????
|
June 6, 2013, 05:34 PM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,543
|
Number of Russians shot?
(I never heard of a German vet who did not spend the entire war on the Eastern Front, nobody ever fought the Americans, British, or French. I don't know who it was shooting at our guys, but it seems not to have been Germans.) |
June 6, 2013, 06:42 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 9, 2013
Location: Central PA
Posts: 254
|
I was thinking the same thing. I know that American Westerns were big in Europe before the war, though I'm not 100% sure what Adolf allowed his loyal followers to watch. We all have seen Hollywood gunfighter notching grips, so maybe life was imitating art. What ever - the piece is very nice and as a historian I am very jealous.
__________________
You Have enemies? Good. That means that you've stood up for something in your life. --Winston Churchill The right to buy weapons is the right to be free. -- A.E. Van Vogt |
June 6, 2013, 08:01 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,863
|
Maybe its a reminder that third time is a charm? As in the Germans starting WWIII but winning it? Well, that's my theory!
Thats actually a very nice example. Which variation is it? Which acceptance does it have E/655 or E/135 or is it police? War time commercial?
__________________
Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west |
June 6, 2013, 09:33 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 12, 2012
Location: milwaukee wi
Posts: 220
|
I got a cz24 with some notches on the grip
turned out they were made by having the trigger spur from another gun rubbing on it was a lot more interesting not knowing why the marks were there at least on yours they don't look like they are from a spur not knowing is sometimes better
__________________
Please visit our site for shooting and reloading supplies http://www.shootingandreloadingsupplies.com/ |
June 6, 2013, 10:20 PM | #9 |
Member In Memoriam
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
|
Given the appearance of that gun, I doubt very much it was ever carried or used in combat. No way of knowing for sure the meaning of the marks.
Jim |
June 6, 2013, 11:11 PM | #10 |
Member
Join Date: January 26, 2013
Posts: 40
|
Thank you for interesting meanings...
This is not a combat gun, and it is comercial - but it has been carried by a German offiser during ww2...The German officers, many of them had to by its own sidearm... But i agree, it can altso be combat or gunfights (or hits) as we say... AKB norway Last edited by Gebirg; June 7, 2013 at 12:49 AM. |
June 7, 2013, 04:56 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 20, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 912
|
I'm thinking just as likely fräuleins.
|
June 7, 2013, 05:15 PM | #12 |
Member
Join Date: January 26, 2013
Posts: 40
|
Thats a good one
|
June 8, 2013, 10:30 PM | #13 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,850
|
interesting, and in beautiful condition. Your gun does not show the WaA Pruf stamp where mine does (left side, base of triggerguard), but does seem to have the eagle/n proof on the rt side, which my gun also has.
Does yours have the WaA Pruf stamp on it, somewhere?
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
June 8, 2013, 11:00 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,863
|
He called it a commercial gun, which means it only has the Eagle/N (E/N) markings (nitroproof). E/135 and E/655 are army acceptance markings, and markings like E/F, E/C, E/L and E/K are police markings.
__________________
Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west |
June 9, 2013, 05:29 AM | #15 |
Member
Join Date: January 26, 2013
Posts: 40
|
Dont forget the HSc for Kriegsmarine
That is correct Win_73, and mu must bring along with us the HSc with Kriegsmarinemarkings...the eagle MIII/8...
|
June 9, 2013, 09:37 AM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,863
|
Wow that's a rare bird there. I don't always mention Kriegsmarine pistols when discussing variations, because even though they exist, they are RARE and many are faked. I never encountered one for sale that I could buy, and I have never saw one in person. That's a real prize, thanks for sharing.
__________________
Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west |
June 9, 2013, 10:50 AM | #17 |
Member
Join Date: January 26, 2013
Posts: 40
|
few HSc Kriegsmarine in the states...?
So, there is few of these pistols with marinemarking in the usa?
|
June 9, 2013, 12:55 PM | #18 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,850
|
Here in the US, virtually every time one sees or hears of a WWII era German pistol, the phrase "carried by" or "taken from" a German Officer is included in the description. And its often true, but its not always true. Even when the term is stretched to its limits, to include all the various "officers" in all those different Third Reich "offices" (Amts).
In the combat arms, virtually all officers had a pistol as part of their uniform. A great many enlisted ranks did as well. Mostly there were the classic combat pistols, primarily the P.08 and P.38, but many other pistols were also used. And in support organizations, the pistols carried could be almost anything. Most German uniforms included a pistol of some kind, and dress uniform often included a dress dagger, or sword. Everything from pocket autos on up were worn by different indiviuals as part of the uniform, and while some groups were ridgidly standardized, many were not, even when they were officially supposed to be. Considering that there were a really large number of people who's uniform called for them to wear a handgun (whether their official duties ever needed it, or not, it was part of the "proper" uniform), Germany was always short of pistols, sometimes critically so. It wasn't just soldiers, the mayor, the postman, the railroad, all kinds of bureaucrats and workers, probably even the dog catcher, all were supposed to have a pistol on their belt, in dress uniform, if not regular wear. To me, a full flap military style holster for a .25 auto seems a bit much, but rules are rules, right? Officers, and especially higher ranking ones, in many nations have often had the ability (and sometimes the requirement) to buy their own pistols, and choices that weren't the standard issue guns were quite tolerated, generally. Goering himself had a Colt .38 revolver on him when captured.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
June 9, 2013, 02:27 PM | #19 |
Member In Memoriam
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
|
Just to be picky, Goring's revolver was an S&W M&P in .38 Special. Göring, unlike his even more evil boss, was a gun collector, so his having a American revolver is not as odd as it seems. The gun is in the West Point Museum; it is a plain blued M&P, with no special markings. I have been unable to determine the serial number in a cursory search.
(Hitler cared little about guns and at the end had only the Walther PP he used to commit suicide and, perhaps a .25 pistol, though that is not certain.) Jim |
June 9, 2013, 03:21 PM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,863
|
It is mentioned in the SCSW 3rd ed that that SN "642357" attributed to Herman Göring. It is in the West Point museum, as JK mentioned. In the pics I have saw of the revolver, the grip style is definitely a 1905 4th change type since the small silver medallions did not appear on K frame grips until the 1930s, and the 1905 4th change production began around 1916. In other words, the SN judging by the photos of the gun is probably correct. It would then officially be a 1905 4th change M&P 38 special, blue with 4in barrel, SN 642357. I read somewhere he bought it in Hamburg, Germany in 1934.
Here is a photo of his M&P he surrendered: Below is a pic of it with the holster, his field baton (the baton was a gift for Göring from Hitler, ivory with gold and platinum inlaid eagles) then a dagger which was presented to Göring (I don't know its exact background), the book was his silver bound guest sign-in book for Carinhall (a mansion he had on his private hunting grounds) and the gold engraved pistol is a Lilliput 32, which was supposedly presented to Hitler by the Nazi Max Kehl, before WWII. Interesting that the display is all Göring except that Liliput. Perhaps it is simply a famous relics/captures of WWII display. Here are some pics of Carinhall. The guest book was fitting for such a dwelling.
__________________
Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west Last edited by Winchester_73; June 12, 2013 at 04:09 PM. |
June 9, 2013, 03:27 PM | #21 |
Member
Join Date: January 26, 2013
Posts: 40
|
James K - it was a PPK Hitler used, not a PP?
|
June 9, 2013, 03:36 PM | #22 | |
Junior member
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,722
|
Quote:
|
|
June 9, 2013, 09:31 PM | #23 |
Member In Memoriam
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
|
Hi, Gebirg,
Not if the stories and pictures I have seen are correct. It was a gold plated (not "solid gold" - a solid gold pistol would not work) PP presented to him on his 50th birthday by Carl Walther. Aside from the normal respect for the nation's leader (who had gotten them billions of RMs in contracts), the Walthers were ardent Nazis, something they, and millions of other Germans, preferred to forget after 1945. The pistol is heavily engraved with ivory grips and is truly a work of art, as one would expect. Several claims have been made to be "the" pistol; one man tried to pass off an ordinary Luger, asking a million dollars; another asked a similar sum for a cheap Röhm pistol. Other guns have been put forth as the Hitler suicide pistol, but that PP seems to be the most likely one. Note that one pistol shown is described as a PPK; it is clearly a PP. Hi, Winchester 73, If my source is correct, that S&W would have been made in 1933; the grips are consistent with that date, plus if "Der Dicke" bought it new in 1934, 1933 would probably be right. (Edited to correct an error.) Jim Last edited by James K; June 9, 2013 at 09:49 PM. |
June 11, 2013, 06:55 AM | #24 |
Staff
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,841
|
I wouldn't make too much of those marks.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe! |
June 12, 2013, 04:07 PM | #25 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,863
|
Quote:
I am fortunate enough to have a WWI P.04 luger in my collection, aka 1917 Navy Luger by DWM. I will post a few pics later.
__________________
Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west |
|
|
|