.38 spl for self defence? man shot 5 times in face lives - Page 3

Skippymjp · January 8, 2013, 08:02 PM

The threat was stopped, the family is safe, and the bad guy's wounds made him easy pickings for the Police. Very successful shooting. Kudos to Mom.

TheDoubleDeuce · January 8, 2013, 08:08 PM

Some pertinent information:

Man shot 20 times by .45 ACP and survives:

http://www.ktvb.com/news/local/64307962.html

Man shot 21 times by 9mm and survives:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-and-survives/

Famous FBI shootout, Mike Platt continued to return fire after being shot 5 times with 9mm by trained FBI agents - he was not on drugs and not wearing body armor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

Looks like the only thing worth a darn for self defense is the Apache gunship's 30mm cannon, right?

I guess it is worth noting that he was still "alive", not a "threat". I doubt .410 7 1/2 shot from the Judge or Governor is going to kill, but it could stop the threat.

**Mike Irwin** · January 8, 2013, 08:13 PM

"Looks like the only thing worth a darn for self defense is the Apache gunship's 30mm cannon, right?"

Fuh! What a piddling, trivial, thing that is! The only people who depend on something like that are the ones who have a death wish!

Ricklin · January 8, 2013, 08:31 PM

She stopped the attack. That's what it is all about. The fact that she does not have to live with having taken a human life is the bonus.

We should all hope for such a great result. She successfully defended herself and kids.

As a dental tech in the USAF I saw the result of a 12 gauge in the mouth....suicide attempt. Yup attempt...the woman lived. The docs and security police surmised that she bent over to pull the trigger thus pointing the barrel out the side of her face. Made a hell of a mess, birdshot in both the Maxilla and the Mandible and a big hole in her cheek.

As I have seen again and again here, and experienced in person. Shot placement is the key.

Denezin · January 8, 2013, 08:37 PM

Well here's the thing. Every so often you will get an abnormality to the normality. He is the abnormality. Now also in self defense you are suppose to shoot center of mass if possible and make them stop what they are doing. he stopped so the gun and ammo did its job. Just because he did or did not die because of her forced attempt to make him stop that actually made him stop is irrelevant. He stopped, Her family is safe and his criminal career is probably ruined if he is disabled. But that's just my take on it.

481 · January 8, 2013, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Man shot 20 times by .45 ACP and survives:

http://www.ktvb.com/news/local/64307962.html

Man shot 21 times by 9mm and survives:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-and-survives/

Famous FBI shootout, Mike Platt continued to return fire after being shot 5 times with 9mm by trained FBI agents - he was not on drugs and not wearing body armor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

Looks like the only thing worth a darn for self defense is the Apache gunship's 30mm cannon, right?

It is amazing how the human body can be so tough and so fragile at the same time, isn't it?

Jim March · January 8, 2013, 09:43 PM

The 38Spl out of a 2" barrel is very marginal. You have to be VERY picky about your ammo.

In standard pressure I trust the Buffalo Bore hollowpoints. Their full wadcutter loaded full power has merit too. The Hornady Critical Defense standard pressure are...not *terrible* but I'm not sure I fully trust 'em.

In +P it's a bit better. Winchester's 130gr JHP is OK. Speer's 135gr is good. Remmie's 158+P plain lead hollowpoint works. Buffalo Bore's +P stuff is awesome, with their 158 reigning supreme - but it's not for the lighter guns. The Hornady Critical Defense in 38+P has merit. And...that's really getting towards the end of the list!

If it's not one of those, it's likely to fail to expand...at that point (except for the plain lead 158 lead hollowpoints based on the "Keith type" and the SOLE full-power wadcutter by Buffalo Bore) you're shooting crap.

Same with the 380 - you need to be really picky. The 9mm has developed to a point where there's fewer bad loads but still some. The 357Mag, 40S&W and 45ACP, it's actually hard to go wrong, but you can.

therealdeal · January 8, 2013, 09:54 PM

Quote:

How do you live with 5 gun shot wounds to the face and neck area by a 38 ? is a 38 not good for self defence now?

it is possible some of the wounds/shots were flashburns, grazes, andor other non-life threatening hits(piece of the chin as an example).

Dr.Lou · January 8, 2013, 10:21 PM

Shot placement! It's all about shot placement. I 've seen big game shot multiple times with monster rifle cartridges that fail to go down immediately, because they hunter didn't hit anything vital; conversely, I have seen big game go down with a single shot from a 22 RF. It's all about shot placement as much it is about the round.

HALL,AUSTIN · January 8, 2013, 11:40 PM

The lesson of the day is shot placement.

peacefulgary · January 9, 2013, 03:00 AM

I just don't have any confidence in the .38 Special from a snubbie.

Skadoosh · January 9, 2013, 09:21 AM

I have complete confidence in my 38Spl snubbie.

Enough that it is my everyday CCW.

SgtLumpy · January 9, 2013, 01:41 PM

Quote:

I just don't have any confidence in the .38 Special from a snubbie.

You should definitely be confident of yourself with your weapon system, whatever that system may be at any time. I have confidence in myself armed with a butter knife if that's what's available at the time.

Sgt Lumpy - n0eq

Noreaster · January 9, 2013, 02:39 PM

The old NYPD stake out squad has a similar incident. Two officers in the backroom eating pizza instead of watching the store. Knock on the door and the pharmacist gets pushed through by a perp with a gun to his back. Upon seeing the officers the perp fires his starter pistol and the lead officer thinks he's shot. Both officers open fire with their revolvers ( 5 & 6 shot 38spl,) Perp goes down for the count. When the ambulance got their the perp sat up and was walked out to the ambulance with eleven GSW to the face/head. All rounds skimmed the skull and failed to penetrate.

1911Tuner · January 9, 2013, 02:48 PM

And Jack Ruby dropped Lee Oswald like a sack of wet laundry with one round of 158-grain lead round nose fired from a 2-inch barrel...probably about 650 fps...and Oswald died 5 minutes later while en route to the hospital.

One incident isn't a good yardstick to prove or disprove anything.

Nanuk · January 9, 2013, 05:25 PM

Quote:

That cracks me up.

And why is that? That I am not impressed with the results I have seen and history?

manta49 · January 9, 2013, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Man shot 20 times by .45 ACP and survives:

I find that hard to believe. Everyone knows a hit in the finger with a .45 will take your arm off.

Strafer Gott · January 9, 2013, 05:38 PM

I want Sgt Lumpy on my side. If your on the Isle of knife crime, guess what you use? But you still have to train!

oldhunter · January 9, 2013, 11:14 PM

I agree on that idea of shooting at the top of the leg one. Right in the ba!!s.

ClydeFrog · January 10, 2013, 12:11 AM

To my understanding, the wounded subject is in ICU & not doing well.

I would be surprised if the crook lived to the end of Jan.
Many people don't understand that handgun bullets can kill or be lethal they just don't have the "knock down" power like Hollywood films & TV crime shows.

Clyde

therealdeal · January 10, 2013, 07:01 AM

it should be noted that ammo makes a big difference and many people might agree the .38 is a prime example. some of the cheap( sometimes twice of the amount in the box) ammo is more for just practice even though all ammo can be deadly. It attracts a buyer trying to save money or someone that doesn't realize that not all bullets do the same damage. You have a much better chance for survival if someone has these loaded rounds rather than hollowpoints in the old cia/fbi rounds. I treat all ammo as SD/HD ammo, but some ammo is more of target shooting, practicing, etc if someone wants to maximize their buck or if he/she uses different ammo for different occasions/purposes.

KenW. · January 10, 2013, 07:36 AM

Congrats to her for stopping the invader. I'll venture a guess though, that the 38 wasn't loaded with premium self defense ammo.
Very likely it was lead round nose.

Perhaps it is now loaded with 135 gr Speer Gold Dot for Short Barrel +p.

**Mike Irwin** · January 10, 2013, 08:53 AM

OK, looks like SHE was in the crawl space, he was in the home proper. She lit him up when he opened the door, which means that he was standing, so again I say that no all of the rounds hit him in the head and essentially did nothing.

**Mike Irwin** · January 10, 2013, 09:03 AM

I routinely carry a snub, a 2" S&W 042.

I've been carrying 125-gr. +P Speer Gold Dots in it for the last several years.

In summer 2010 I had the chance to test some of the rounds by firing them into a trash can filled with water from 10-15 feet away. Not the best analog in the world, but it was what I could do at the time, and Martin Fackler indicates that water testing (via the Fackler box) does give valid penetration information.

9 out of 10 mushroomed perfectly to about .50, "penetrated" about 20 inches of water, and dented the opposite side of the can. The 10th one I didn't recover as it hit above the dropping waterline in the can and sailed into the dirt bank beyond the can.

The Speer ammo is specifically designed to both penetrate deeply and expand reliably at .38 Special velocities, including when fired from a snub.

hulley · January 10, 2013, 09:10 AM

Quote:

I've been carrying 125-gr. +P Speer Gold Dots in it for the last several years.

Thats whats in my wifes LCR.

January 8, 2013, 08:13 PM	#53
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	"Looks like the only thing worth a darn for self defense is the Apache gunship's 30mm cannon, right?" Fuh! What a piddling, trivial, thing that is! The only people who depend on something like that are the ones who have a death wish! __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 8, 2013, 08:31 PM	#54
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,011	Great Outcome She stopped the attack. That's what it is all about. The fact that she does not have to live with having taken a human life is the bonus. We should all hope for such a great result. She successfully defended herself and kids. As a dental tech in the USAF I saw the result of a 12 gauge in the mouth....suicide attempt. Yup attempt...the woman lived. The docs and security police surmised that she bent over to pull the trigger thus pointing the barrel out the side of her face. Made a hell of a mess, birdshot in both the Maxilla and the Mandible and a big hole in her cheek. As I have seen again and again here, and experienced in person. Shot placement is the key. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

January 8, 2013, 09:43 PM	#57
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	The 38Spl out of a 2" barrel is very marginal. You have to be VERY picky about your ammo. In standard pressure I trust the Buffalo Bore hollowpoints. Their full wadcutter loaded full power has merit too. The Hornady Critical Defense standard pressure are...not terrible but I'm not sure I fully trust 'em. In +P it's a bit better. Winchester's 130gr JHP is OK. Speer's 135gr is good. Remmie's 158+P plain lead hollowpoint works. Buffalo Bore's +P stuff is awesome, with their 158 reigning supreme - but it's not for the lighter guns. The Hornady Critical Defense in 38+P has merit. And...that's really getting towards the end of the list! If it's not one of those, it's likely to fail to expand...at that point (except for the plain lead 158 lead hollowpoints based on the "Keith type" and the SOLE full-power wadcutter by Buffalo Bore) you're shooting crap. Same with the 380 - you need to be really picky. The 9mm has developed to a point where there's fewer bad loads but still some. The 357Mag, 40S&W and 45ACP, it's actually hard to go wrong, but you can. __________________ Jim March

January 9, 2013, 09:21 AM	#62
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	I have complete confidence in my 38Spl snubbie. Enough that it is my everyday CCW. __________________ NRA Life Member USN Retired

January 9, 2013, 02:48 PM	#65
1911Tuner Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills Posts: 666	.38 And Jack Ruby dropped Lee Oswald like a sack of wet laundry with one round of 158-grain lead round nose fired from a 2-inch barrel...probably about 650 fps...and Oswald died 5 minutes later while en route to the hospital. One incident isn't a good yardstick to prove or disprove anything. __________________ If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck

January 8, 2013, 08:02 PM	#51
Skippymjp Junior Member Join Date: January 8, 2013 Posts: 7	The threat was stopped, the family is safe, and the bad guy's wounds made him easy pickings for the Police. Very successful shooting. Kudos to Mom.

January 8, 2013, 08:08 PM	#52
TheDoubleDeuce Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2013 Posts: 115	Some pertinent information: Man shot 20 times by .45 ACP and survives: http://www.ktvb.com/news/local/64307962.html Man shot 21 times by 9mm and survives: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-and-survives/ Famous FBI shootout, Mike Platt continued to return fire after being shot 5 times with 9mm by trained FBI agents - he was not on drugs and not wearing body armor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout Looks like the only thing worth a darn for self defense is the Apache gunship's 30mm cannon, right? I guess it is worth noting that he was still "alive", not a "threat". I doubt .410 7 1/2 shot from the Judge or Governor is going to kill, but it could stop the threat.

January 8, 2013, 08:37 PM	#55
Denezin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2010 Location: North Carolina Posts: 209	Well here's the thing. Every so often you will get an abnormality to the normality. He is the abnormality. Now also in self defense you are suppose to shoot center of mass if possible and make them stop what they are doing. he stopped so the gun and ammo did its job. Just because he did or did not die because of her forced attempt to make him stop that actually made him stop is irrelevant. He stopped, Her family is safe and his criminal career is probably ruined if he is disabled. But that's just my take on it.

January 8, 2013, 10:21 PM	#59
Dr.Lou Junior Member Join Date: January 5, 2013 Posts: 1	Shot placement! It's all about shot placement. I 've seen big game shot multiple times with monster rifle cartridges that fail to go down immediately, because they hunter didn't hit anything vital; conversely, I have seen big game go down with a single shot from a 22 RF. It's all about shot placement as much it is about the round.

January 8, 2013, 11:40 PM	#60
HALL,AUSTIN Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2011 Location: asheville north carolina Posts: 556	The lesson of the day is shot placement.

January 9, 2013, 03:00 AM	#61
peacefulgary Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 714	I just don't have any confidence in the .38 Special from a snubbie.

January 9, 2013, 02:39 PM	#64
Noreaster Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2011 Location: New England Posts: 1,449	The old NYPD stake out squad has a similar incident. Two officers in the backroom eating pizza instead of watching the store. Knock on the door and the pharmacist gets pushed through by a perp with a gun to his back. Upon seeing the officers the perp fires his starter pistol and the lead officer thinks he's shot. Both officers open fire with their revolvers ( 5 & 6 shot 38spl,) Perp goes down for the count. When the ambulance got their the perp sat up and was walked out to the ambulance with eleven GSW to the face/head. All rounds skimmed the skull and failed to penetrate.

January 9, 2013, 05:38 PM	#68
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,315	I want Sgt Lumpy on my side. If your on the Isle of knife crime, guess what you use? But you still have to train!

January 9, 2013, 11:14 PM	#69
oldhunter Member Join Date: October 9, 2005 Location: Southwestern New York State Posts: 38	I agree on that idea of shooting at the top of the leg one. Right in the ba!!s.

January 10, 2013, 12:11 AM	#70
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	Home-breaker; .38spl wounds.... To my understanding, the wounded subject is in ICU & not doing well. I would be surprised if the crook lived to the end of Jan. Many people don't understand that handgun bullets can kill or be lethal they just don't have the "knock down" power like Hollywood films & TV crime shows. Clyde

January 10, 2013, 07:01 AM	#71
therealdeal Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 627	it should be noted that ammo makes a big difference and many people might agree the .38 is a prime example. some of the cheap( sometimes twice of the amount in the box) ammo is more for just practice even though all ammo can be deadly. It attracts a buyer trying to save money or someone that doesn't realize that not all bullets do the same damage. You have a much better chance for survival if someone has these loaded rounds rather than hollowpoints in the old cia/fbi rounds. I treat all ammo as SD/HD ammo, but some ammo is more of target shooting, practicing, etc if someone wants to maximize their buck or if he/she uses different ammo for different occasions/purposes. __________________ NRA Distinguished Life Member "Abraham Lincoln freed all men, but Sam Colt made them all equal." (post Civil War slogan)

January 10, 2013, 07:36 AM	#72
KenW. Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2004 Posts: 163	Congrats to her for stopping the invader. I'll venture a guess though, that the 38 wasn't loaded with premium self defense ammo. Very likely it was lead round nose. Perhaps it is now loaded with 135 gr Speer Gold Dot for Short Barrel +p.

January 10, 2013, 08:53 AM	#73
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	OK, looks like SHE was in the crawl space, he was in the home proper. She lit him up when he opened the door, which means that he was standing, so again I say that no all of the rounds hit him in the head and essentially did nothing. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 10, 2013, 09:03 AM	#74
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	I routinely carry a snub, a 2" S&W 042. I've been carrying 125-gr. +P Speer Gold Dots in it for the last several years. In summer 2010 I had the chance to test some of the rounds by firing them into a trash can filled with water from 10-15 feet away. Not the best analog in the world, but it was what I could do at the time, and Martin Fackler indicates that water testing (via the Fackler box) does give valid penetration information. 9 out of 10 mushroomed perfectly to about .50, "penetrated" about 20 inches of water, and dented the opposite side of the can. The 10th one I didn't recover as it hit above the dropping waterline in the can and sailed into the dirt bank beyond the can. The Speer ammo is specifically designed to both penetrate deeply and expand reliably at .38 Special velocities, including when fired from a snub. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

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