Transfer protocols

[johnwilliamson062]

I recently found myself gazing at a beautiful 100 year old top-break SW pistol in 22lr on gunbroker. While following this auction for several days I ran across a number of other auctions on low-end 22s. Some small thing broken, junk to begin with, etc etc. I ended up buying two of them as project guns. Since the price tag was under $100 shipped to my FFL I didn't want to tack on $30 for a transfer. A few months back I stumbled across shop on my route to work that still does $15 transfers! Great I know. So I decided to give them a try.

I send an e-mail asking for a copy of their FFL. The manager says to send her e-mail addresses and she will e-mail them out. A couple local shops really avoid giving out their FFLs to everyone who walks in the door so they don't have outdated ones in circulation. I send the contact e-mails and a few hours later I am copied on an e-mail requesting copies of the other two shops FFLs and stating the local FFL will be sent as soon as she can verify the sending FFLs.

I know an FFL can do pretty much whatever extra check they want, but this seems absurd. I am sure this is not required in Ohio. Has anyone run across this? I am seriously considering asking another FFL to do the transfer. Most will do multiple transfers at one time for a single fee, so it really won't be that much money. Besides, what if I buy a gun from a non-FFL? I don't really want to business with them at all if thy will not accept a transfer from a non-FFL.

I am also thiking, if I am copied on all these e-mails, I am going to end up with a copy of the FFL anyways.

[Doyle]

There are LOTS of receiving FFLs who refuse to take shipments from an individual. While they certainly can legally accept those kinds of shipments, many simply don't want to do so. Their FFL - their choice. The only recourse you have is to either find a new FFL or become a good enough customer of that FFL that they will be more flexible with you.

[johnwilliamson062]

In this case both are FFLs, but the policy is foolish and uncommon in this area. In this case the contact info clearly points to gun shops.

[carguychris]

I know an FFL can do pretty much whatever extra check they want, but this seems absurd. I am sure this is not required in Ohio. Has anyone run across this?

People run across this all the time. From a strictly legal standpoint, unless otherwise prohibited by state law, a FFL may lawfully accept a firearm from anyone in any state, including non-licensees (i.e. people without FFL's). The issue is that the receiving FFL is required to log the firearm into her record book, and the entry is supposed to positively and correctly identify the sender. Many FFL's do not want to deal with the legal hassles that may ensue if the sender's ID is illegible or missing, particularly if the firearm turns out to be stolen or illegally modified. Hence, many FFL's have a policy of not accepting firearms shipped from distant non-licensees who can't personally appear at the FFL's shop for verification of ID.

The issue gets a little more involved when shipping a handgun. By far the least expensive way to ship a handgun is the USPS Priority Mail Flat Rate Box, but non-licensees and Collector (C&R) FFL's are not allowed to send modern handguns via U.S. Mail:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=539529

In my experience, unless the handgun is traveling an unusually short distance, it's often less expensive for the sender to ship using a local FFL rather than paying for UPS or FedEx Next Day Air, as the cost savings from using the Flat Rate Box generally offsets the extra transfer fee. If the handgun is coming via U.S. Mail, it's not unreasonable for the receiving FFL to DEMAND proof that the sender is a legit FFL themselves, as BOTH parties could otherwise run afoul of U.S. Postal regulations.

There is, however, another wrinkle to this particular question...

I recently found myself gazing at a beautiful 100 year old top-break SW pistol in 22lr on gunbroker. While following this auction for several days I ran across a number of other auctions on low-end 22s.

The S&W, along with some other old top-breaks you saw, may be a legal pre-1899 antique. In fact, AFAIK S&W never mass-produced a factory .22LR top-break, although aftermarket conversions exist; I wonder if you're referring to a tip-up, i.e. latch under the barrel and hinge on the topstrap, rather than the reverse. ALL S&W tip-ups are antiques. A C&R FFL is permitted to send or receive such a firearm by mail, so you may want to apply for a C&R FFL yourself. More info can be found in the USPS links in the thread I linked above.

[johnwilliamson062]

Well, here is the auction that held my attention. No, I am not sure what it really is. I read somewhere S&W did some #3 single shot 22lr conversions, but this does not appear to be one. I believe #3s were at one point US Army standard issue then surplussed,so quite a few were modified. I was the high bidder, but did not meet the reserve. Had I been able to find any more info on it I likely would have searched the couch cushions for coins and found a way to increase my bid. I really like the looks and have long wanted a top-break 22lr.

The pistols I bought are not definitively C&R and definitely not antique. Just an RG and a Jimenez. Both will likely be trash before I am done with them as I plan to use them for my first forays into gunsmithing.


Back to the FFL deal, check this out:
http://www.nfa-arms.com/FFL_Transfers.html
That is called "ease of doing business"
They are a little out of my way, but if I think I can drive a few extra minutes for the service. $10 is also absurdly cheap.

[carguychris]

John, I think your auction link is missing. [EDIT: I see it now. ] However...

I read somewhere S&W did some #s single shot 22lr conversions, but this does not appear to be one.

OK, my bad, I was thinking top-break revolvers, and NOT single-shots. S&W DID produce .22LR top-break single-shots, and in fact, IIRC most of their single-shots were made in this caliber, with the notable exception of guns that came as (very rare!) cased sets with interchangeable revolver and single-shot "uppers" (if you could call them that).

IIRC almost all S&W single-shots were produced in the very early 20th century, and are therefore NOT legal antiques.

[EDIT: The revolver in the GB auction is a sleeved aftermarket conversion. You can plainly see the sleeves in the chambers. This one IS a legal pre-1899 antique; all large-frame top-break S&W Double Actions are antiques, as all of the frames were made before 1899, despite the fact that the gun was still cataloged a dozen or so years later. The large-frame Double Action sold very poorly, and S&W was assembling them from stockpiled parts.]

[johnwilliamson062]

I am requesting a copy of their FFL to verify that they have one. We have experienced to many problems from past transfers that did not have an FFL. This is our store policy.
If the firearm is purchased from a non FFL holder and it goes across state lines it must go through an FFL holder to be shipped out. If you are purchasing in the state then you do not need to go thru an FFL holder.

I am sorry for any inconvenience that they may cause. This is our store policy and has been since just after we opened.

If there is anything else I can help you with let me know.

Bolding mine. It is not entirely clear from her message whether interstate transactions being shipped from an FFL is required by their store policy or she believes it is required by law. If it is just store policy then it seems they do not require a license for an intrastate transfer, which seems odd. I am not sure how that differs for them legally. I realize I can buy intrastate without a license, but they have the same responsibilities if they do a transfer.
Doesn't matter. I am going to have someone else do the transfers.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by Mystery FFL

If the firearm is purchased from a non FFL holder and it goes across state lines it must go through an FFL holder to be shipped out. If you are purchasing in the state then you do not need to go thru an FFL holder.

Her statement IS confusing.

Federal firearms law does NOT require the sender to be a FFL when the recipient is a FFL, regardless of whether the shipment crosses state lines. (State law may say otherwise, but I'm not familiar at all with OH laws.) In this sense, her statement is incorrect.

However... federal postal regulations require the sender to be a FFL* in order to send a handgun by mail, also regardless of whether the shipment crosses state lines. In this sense, her statement could be correct.

In other words, the sender can violate postal regulations even if no firearms regulations are broken.

That said, the postal regulations have no bearing if the sender ships via UPS or FedEx Next Day Air.

IMHO the FFL is either ignorant of the nuances of the law, or has been burned by the ID and/or handgun mailing issues, and is using the law as an excuse rather than taking the time to explain legal nuances to impatient buyers.

Mandatory disclaimer: I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV. This is not legal advice. Caveat emptor and YMMV.

*EDIT TO ADD FOOTNOTE: Postal regulations allow certain government and military agents to send handguns by mail without a FFL, but this probably isn't relevant here.

[johnwilliamson062]

If the latter she need not worry anymore. In 20 minutes I arranged the transfers through another FFL. Been dealing with her since Tuesday.

The shop has only been open a year, so maybe I will try back in a few.

[wayneinFL]

When I had my FFL, I really didn't care whether the gun was shipped from a private seller or a FFL. If I could send the seller a money order and he shipped the gun, that verified their address.

On the other hand, no one ever asked for a transfer from a private seller, so that never came up.