Should a Pistol Never "Limp Wrist" jam?

[M1Rifle30-06]

A recent post asking about the Glock 21 limp wristing got me to thinking...

Should a self defense pistol be expected to be reliable, no matter how it's held? many consider Glocks and other polymer pistols utterly reliable, but these same guns are jam-o-matics when not held correctly.

Considering that we're preparing for a situation in which we very well may already be injured and/or unable to hold the pistol firmly, should a self defense pistol be expected to work reliably even if held loosely?

[Rogervzv]

A revolver will. Semi-autos are inherently subject to limp-wristing. Just grasp the semi-auto firmly and you will be fine.

[TunnelRat]

many consider Glocks and other polymer pistols utterly reliable, but these same guns are jam-o-matics when not held correctly.

That's a ludicrous exaggeration.

[Hunter0924]

I was teaching a girl I know how to shoot an autoloader. I started out with a Colt Cadet .22 LR and she had no issues but when I transitioned to a Gen 4 G17 she was having reliability issues with the pistol. I never had trouble with the pistol before that and as we worked on her grip and stance the problem disappeared.

[colbad]

If used properly it generally will function as designed. Even a pointed stick will fail to function to design if used incorrectly. Kind of like being a poor driver and having difficulty with a new Ferrari.

Train correctly for the purpose you intend to use the FA and you should not have a problem.

[hemiram]

I have had, and sold, many a semiauto that "limp wrists". If my normal grip isn't enough to keep it from happening, it's out of here. I don't have any guns at present that do it, and I won't keep any one that does.

[M1Rifle30-06]

I have had, and sold, many a semiauto that "limp wrists". If my normal grip isn't enough to keep it from happening, it's out of here. I don't have any guns at present that do it, and I won't keep any one that does.

What about a simulated injured (loose) grip?

Also, what pistols have you ended up with that don't limp wrist?

[Sabrewolfe]

Seeing as "limp-wristing" is a result of the shooter allowing the frame of the weapon to move backwards in relation to the slide, I find it a bit hard to blame the firearm if/when such failures occur. Whether it is due to the shooter being unfamiliar with proper grip/stance mechanics, from trying to control a weapon that is too large for them to grip correctly, or because the recoil from the chosen caliber is more than they can manage, the weapon is not the source of the failure. So, the premise that a semi-auto pistol should never limp-wrist jam is a false one. The failure is in the shooter, not the gun. Which means the onus is on the shooter to choose a weapon that fits their hand and ask for assistance if they are unfamiliar with how to handle handguns.

If the weapon IS the source of the issue, than it's not a limp-wrist failure, and that is something else entirely.

~EDIT~

I should probably add, since the OP did specifically mention potential injury during a DGU being a factor in ones ability to maintain a strong enough grip on the weapon to prevent a "limp-wrist" failure, that you don't need to strangle the gun to prevent it jamming. If you retain enough strength to lift the gun, you should have enough strength to grip it sufficiently. If you don't, you probably wouldn't be able to manage the DA trigger pull or thumb the hammer back on a revolver anyway, so limp-wristing is most likely the least of your concerns regardless of what weapon type you carry at that point.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

That's a ludicrous exaggeration.

I agree; it's actually pretty hard to make most guns malfunction from limp-wristing. Let's take Glocks, for example. They have a reputation for limp-wrist malfunctions. Considering 9mm recoils less than .40 or .45, you would think that 9mm Glocks would be more prone to limp-wrist malfunctions than Glocks in other calibers.

Well, my friend and I took my Glock 19 Gen 3 and tried to get it to limp-wrist malfunction; we each shot it while holding it as loosely as we could in a two-handed grip and it still functioned fine. So then we each shot it using a lose one-handed grip and it still functioned fine. So then we each held it in a loose single-hand weak-hand grip and it still functioned fine. No matter how we held the gun, it still functioned fine.

Finally I gripped it by moving my hand down and just holding the bottom of the grip in the loosest one-handed grip I could manage. I even awkwardly bent my elbow when I shot it so the gun moved as much as possible. And it finally malfunctioned. So it became pretty clear to me that in order to cause a limp-wrist malfunction in a Glock 19, you really need to be trying very hard.

[Slamfire]

Considering that we're preparing for a situation in which we very well may already be injured and/or unable to hold the pistol firmly, should a self defense pistol be expected to work reliably even if held loosely?

No matter how much it may be desired, you cannot waive the laws of physics. If you are going to carry an autopistol better learn to live with the trade off's.

[ftttu]

I don't know about "never", but after seeing a few videos on the Glock limp wristing phenomenon, Im thinking Glock better get with the program big time.

The autoloading pistol better fire every time, especially under most human related conditions. Ill, injured and/or weakened, that lifeline better shoot each time!

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by ftttu

I don't know about "never", but after seeing a few videos on the Glock limp wristing phenomenon, Im thinking Glock better get with the program big time.

The autoloading pistol better fire every time, especially under most human related conditions. Ill, injured and/or weakened, that lifeline better shoot each time!

I have been shooting for years now. I can count on one hand the limp wrist failures I have witnessed. You will probably get 10 ftes, ftfs, and any other kind of failure before you see one from limp wristing.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by ftttu

I don't know about "never", but after seeing a few videos on the Glock limp wristing phenomenon, Im thinking Glock better get with the program big time.

Videos are easily manipulated. They could've been using very weak handloads or a non-standard recoil spring. Try it yourself; it's actually very difficult to get a Glock to malfunction from limp-wristing. Like I mentioned in post #9, my friend and I had a heck of a time getting my Glock 19 to limp-wrist malfunction. We were trying as hard as we could, and it still took us a lot of tries before I was able to figure out the perfect hold low on the grip that would cause it to malfunction.

From my experience, the only way to get most guns to limp-wrist malfunction (besides doing it intentionally) is if you have absolutely no idea how to hold a gun. And that's a training issue, not a gun issue.

With my Glock 19, even if I get injured to the point where I have no strength in my hand and arm, as long as I can get a high grip on the gun it will still function just fine.

[johnwilliamson062]

I limpwristed autoloaders a few times when I first started shooting and have seen a few other new shooters make the mistake. The idea that anyone who has fired several hundred rounds out of an autoloader will have this problem with a functioning production 9mm is imaginary IMO. Even injured. Properly holding a 9mm autoloader can't take more than 20% of my strength. Little enough that I would be just as worried about an injury that would preclude me from pulling a heavy DA revolver trigger.

[RX-79G]

I'm certain that you can make any recoil weapon and most blowback ones jam buy allowing it to move sufficiently while firing.

But I have yet to come across a car that won't crash if you let go of the wheel for long enough. Similar lessons apply.

[James K]

An autoloader works because the frame remains relatively stationary while the slide moves back in response to recoil. If the frame is allowed to move along with the slide, the gun will not function correctly.

Whether a gun does that depends on the combined mass of the frame and the hand holding it and on whether there is enough resistance from that mass to allow the frame to resist the pressure on the recoil spring and the movement of the slide.

If the frame is light (as with polymer frames) and the hand does not provide enough resistance, the gun can malfunction. If the frame is heavy (steel), the hand still has to provide some resistance but not as much as with the light frame.

Heavy frame guns rarely give problems from being lightly held, since the frame itself is heavy enough to provide enough resistance; light frame guns (alloy or polymer) need more resistance from the hand and arm.

Jim

[TunnelRat]

If the frame is light (as with polymer frames) and the hand does not provide enough resistance, the gun can malfunction. If the frame is heavy (steel), the hand still has to provide some resistance but not as much as with the light frame.

IMO it has less to do with weight as rigidity. There are some polymer pistols that are less prone to limp wristing than Glocks and some have postulated that it is because the Glock polymer tends to flex some more than others.

[btmj]

Neither my G17 nor my G19 can be made to limp-wrist fail. I have tried, and I have gripped the G17 so loosely it almost came out of my hands... still it would cycle. I was using cheap 124 gr FMJ.

I could never get my Remy R1 1911 to limp-wrist fail with either 180 gr HP or 230 gr FMJ. I can not get my FNX 40 to do it either with 165 gr FMJ.

I could not get my wife's LC9 to limp-wrist fail. I dropped my Walther PPS 9mm trying to do it, and it luckily fell onto my range bag and was undamaged.... Even though it came out of my hands, there was a fresh round in the chamber when I picked it up.

I am a very average sized guy, with average size hands. I must either be an idiot, or I don't understand limp-wrist failure. Another conclusion is that it is a very rare failure and any reasonable grip will prevent it.

Jim

[iraiam]

Glocks and other polymer pistols utterly reliable, but these same guns are jam-o-matics when not held correctly.

I absolutely disagree, I can't speak for all composites or all Glocks, but I have tried to induce limp wrist failures, and it's not so easy, in fact it's downright difficult to induce such a failure on a Glock 21 Gen3 and Gen4, certainly nowhere near a "jam-o-matic", I couldn't induce such a failure holding it between my thumb and forefinger and nearly twisting my wrist off on every shot.

It was much easier to induce a limp wrist failure with less than standard power reload ammunition, both with polymer guns and all steel guns.

If you doubt this, then you should stop watching Youtube videos and perform your own scientific experiments, there is absolutely no reason to rely on the "expert opinions" of others, we are all intelligent beings who can develop our own expert opinions.

[RX-79G]

It was much easier to induce a limp wrist failure with less than standard power reload ammunition, both with polymer guns and all steel guns.

I would think this would be both incredibly obvious, and not at all instructive. When is departing from the normal energy levels a machine is designed to work in not going to be a factor in it malfunctioning?

[iraiam]

I would think this would be both incredibly obvious, and not at all instructive. When is departing from the normal energy levels a machine is designed to work in not going to be a factor in it malfunctioning?

Yes, and you just helped make my point. As I was unable to duplicate the symptom without lessening the energy level of the ammunition.

[uradaisyifudo]

I failed twice with a Colt mustang. Switching from .45 to .380 and thinking I could shoot more relaxed. Even small guns deserve to be shot well, that was my bad. I hear people cannot cycle some of the magnum semis reliably if the load is light or if it limp wrested, makes sense to me. A full size 9 mm should be less susceptible as the platform does more of the work for you.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by btmj

Neither my G17 nor my G19 can be made to limp-wrist fail. I have tried, and I have gripped the G17 so loosely it almost came out of my hands... still it would cycle. I was using cheap 124 gr FMJ.

You can limp-wrist it if you use a bad enough grip. I agree that's it's pretty hard, but you can do it by holding the gun low on the grip and using a super-loose, bent-armed, one-handed hold. But it's not easy and it's not something you're ever going to do no matter how injured you are. So if you have any idea how to actually hold a gun and you're not using under-powered ammo, your Glock isn't going to limp-wrist malfunction.

Originally Posted by btmj

any reasonable grip will prevent it.

I agree completely. I once had a customer who tried to return his Glock 19 Gen 4 because it malfunctioned once every mag or two. He had researched Gen 4 Glocks and decided he had a bad one. So I asked him to show me how he held the gun. He demonstrated one of the worst shooting stances I've ever seen; he held the gun one-handed close to his face with a limp wrist and a bent elbow. Even after two years working at an LGS with a public range, I had never seen a customer hold a gun so poorly.

But even after I explained that he was probably limp-wristing the gun, he didn't believe me. So I took him to the range and I shot several mags without a malfunction. After he watched me shoot I think he tried to mimic me, because when he shot the gun after me he used a two-handed grip. His stance was still awkward and not a single round from the mag hit paper at 7 yards, but at least the gun didn't malfunction.

The point of this story is to show that limp-wristing a Glock is possible, but only if you have no idea how to hold a handgun. If you have even a few minutes of training on how to properly hold it, you're not going to have a limp-wrist malfunction.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by hemiram

I have had, and sold, many a semiauto that "limp wrists". If my normal grip isn't enough to keep it from happening, it's out of here. I don't have any guns at present that do it, and I won't keep any one that does.

I have shot many, many guns and I've never had a limp-wrist malfunction while using my normal grip. If you've owned many semi-autos with limp-wristing issues then you're either very unlucky or you're using too weak a grip.

[chadio]

The point of this story is to show that limp-wristing a Glock is possible, but only if you have no idea how to hold a handgun.

(Nevermind those silly revolvers or metal-framed autos, that go bang no matter what - if you can't shoot a polymer framed handgun, you have no idea how to hold a handgun)

The point of this story is to show that limp-wristing a Glock is possible, but only if you have no idea how to hold a GLOCK

There, fixed it for ya