.40 cal on the way out? - Page 5

FairWarning · March 7, 2015, 12:27 PM

.45 GAP and .327 Mag are pointless calibers that are going nowhere but to the obscurity bin.

.40 however, fills a niche. There was a time when people thought it would dominate the popular market, but that hasn't come true and I am confident that it never will.

I personally have no use for .40. If I want a carry gun, it's 9mm. If I want a full size holstered zombie gun, it's .45. If I want a high powered pistol for hunting or longer shots, it's .357 or .44 or 10 mm.

CUBAN REDNECK · March 7, 2015, 12:58 PM

I have pistols in both 9MM and .40 S&W. I like them both. It's a matter of application and need. I don't think that the .40 cal is going away anytime soon. We should also be wary of any massive switch to 9MM for law enforcement and then have some politicians attempt to enact European-like legislation prohibiting the civilian use of so-called military calibers such as the 9MM. Remember that there was PLENTY of .40 cal on the shelves during the post-Sandy Hook panic of 2013-2014.

Mystro · March 7, 2015, 01:51 PM

Correction: The full size USP was built for the 45acp. The other P229 and USP Compact were designed around the 40S&W.

Quote:

Quote:
For full size, the Sig P229 was built for the 40 from the ground up. So was the HK USP Compact and full size USP.
That's true for every 9mm/.40 service pistol platform designed after the introduction of the .40.
Not true, but don't let me get in the way of a good rant.

AustinTX · March 7, 2015, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Not true, but don't let me get in the way of a good rant.

My condolences if you're unable to distinguish a simple statement with which you disagree from a "rant." That's a pitiable affliction indeed.

By all means, make your post useful and mention some examples. I'm certainly capable of error like any other human being.

Cyanide971 · March 7, 2015, 03:46 PM

Concerning .40 striker-fire pistols, don't forget the Steyr Family (L, M, C, and S).

Cosmodragoon · March 7, 2015, 05:32 PM

FairWarning wrote:

Quote:

.45 GAP and .327 Mag are pointless calibers that are going nowhere but to the obscurity bin.

.40 however, fills a niche. There was a time when people thought it would dominate the popular market, but that hasn't come true and I am confident that it never will.

I personally have no use for .40. If I want a carry gun, it's 9mm. If I want a full size holstered zombie gun, it's .45. If I want a high powered pistol for hunting or longer shots, it's .357 or .44 or 10 mm.

I've shot .45 GAP but never put any money into it. I guess it filled the gap of wanting a .45 on a smaller frame. It didn't do much for me because I never really saw the need. The .327 on the other hand is pretty neat. The neglected beauty from the beginning was its value as a potential woods gun and that was never fully realized outside of custom projects. For SD applications, it did address an issue for some of us who love revolvers.

Your standard 5-shot J-frame is a shot less than some of us want and there is a power/recoil issue that still plays out regularly in threads here. Some people want more than .38 special, which is about all that is comfortable for a lot of us to shoot in them. Firing full-house .357 solves the power problem but is a beast. The .38 +p ends up being the balance for a lot of people. The old .32 H&R magnum gave you an extra shot but generally fell between .38 and .38 +p in terms of power. It just wasn't enough to really stand out. I think .327 was the perfect answer for small-frame revolvers. Sadly, it was poorly launched, at the wrong time, with not enough support to gain the right kind of foothold in the market. It still has dedicated fans but we are a relatively small niche.

We could have the same kind of conversation about .40 but it is my opinion that the real difference has to do with its institutional beginnings and subsequent use by agencies. If it was released the same way the .327 was released, I think it would have fallen just as flat and we wouldn't be having this conversation today.

Arizona Fusilier · March 8, 2015, 08:05 PM

Zombietactics, I think I have been following the thread closely; I respect your arguments and points made to date. However, you lost me on "penetration is a fail". Did I miss something? We were talking about the size of holes, and you suddenly seemed to make a pre-emptive strike on this angle.

This is important given I have read some opinions that penetration is far more important than has traditionally been acknowledged. This is very important, because even with perfect shot placement, with inadequate penetration, all is for naught.

And while we are talking about what's getting shot; let's not forget about body armor, automobile glass, leather jackets, the obese, etc.

Kosmo K · March 8, 2015, 09:45 PM

Going the way of the Dodo bird

Metalboy · March 8, 2015, 09:54 PM

Let all .40's come my way, I just love them.
At age 11, we have to fight the Ruszki tanks with Molotov cocktails.

zombietactics · March 9, 2015, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arizona Fusilier

Zombietactics, I think I have been following the thread closely; I respect your arguments and points made to date. However, you lost me on "penetration is a fail". Did I miss something?

Yep, you missed the part where I said "more penetration is a fail", not simply "penetration is a fail" ;-)

The point - in context - being, that regarding the use of .357sig or 10mm:

.357sig and 10mm are simply faster 9mm and .40S&W
More velocity gets you either ever-so-slightly better expansion OR more penetration.
Ever-so-slightly better expansion ... hard to say if that makes a difference. Most evidence seems to suggest that it does not.
Most of the .357sig and 10mm duty-rounds penetrate less than their 9mm counterparts, and only expand a bit sooner.
As long as that penetration is still within FBI/IWBA standards, that's not a "bad" thing ... but it's not getting you any special advantage either.
If it does not expand earlier (or more) it overpenetrates. Overpenetration is just a waste, and doesn't get you anything useful on human targets.

Limnophile · March 9, 2015, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Overpenetration is just a waste, and doesn't get you anything useful on human targets.

Another hole to bleed from and to relieve internal pressures from slowing the rate of blood loss. You can drain a beer can having two holes much more quickly than one having just a single hole.

zombietactics · March 9, 2015, 08:47 PM

It's not like the movies. People do not typically bleed out of the entry and exit wounds, so much as they bleed into their own internal cavities. In many cases there is little external bleeding at all, or certainly not enough to account for loss of blood pressure, etc.

The Verminator · March 9, 2015, 08:59 PM

Quote:

.45 GAP and .327 Mag are pointless calibers that are going nowhere but to the obscurity bin.

.40 however, fills a niche. There was a time when people thought it would dominate the popular market, but that hasn't come true and I am confident that it never will.

I personally have no use for .40. If I want a carry gun, it's 9mm. If I want a full size holstered zombie gun, it's .45. If I want a high powered pistol for hunting or longer shots, it's .357 or .44 or 10 mm.

Wise words and true.

The Verminator · March 9, 2015, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Every time you say the 9mm is "almost as good", I remember officer Darren Wilson, so just why did he have to fire 12 times?

Interesting question.

The reason is......he wasn't shooting very accurately (probably due to having just been smacked in the eye).

However, the truly salient fact that jumps out at you in this incident is that the caliber of the weapon mattered not at all in this confrontation.

The killing shot would have killed just as certainly had it been a 9mm.

Metalboy · March 9, 2015, 09:34 PM

Quote:

The killing shot would have killed just as certainly had it been a 9mm.

Maybe. And than again, we"ll never know.

The Verminator · March 9, 2015, 09:36 PM

Yes.....well, exactly what are the chances that the 9mm would have bounced off Brown's skull?

Are there many such cases documented?

I thought not.

Metalboy · March 9, 2015, 09:41 PM

Your guess is as good as anybody elses, but it's only a guess.

noonesshowmonkey · March 9, 2015, 10:02 PM

These threads are hilarious. The amount of sacred cows trotted out and tarted up, threatened with slaughter, and then vehemently defended must be some kind of internet record.

Not sure anyone has really addressed one of the key reasons .40 is going to stick around (just like the other not-9mm and not-.45 cartridges): logistics. There is a whole industry infrastructure built up around producing handguns and their ammo chambered for .40 S&W. Industry support is an animal far more worth considering than a deer. (LOL! I can't believe that even came up!!!)

As a few folks have said: handgun rounds have anecdotal and statistically irrelevant differences in terminal effect across calibers. Shot placement and quantity of hits are far more the indicator of 'effectiveness', in which the 9mm beats out the .40, which beats out the .45.

Pretty much the only thing that the .40 does, as someone has stated, is overcome barriers. It retains far more of its energy on impact, and after defeating, common barriers such as windshields. Even cursory searches into officer involved shootings will show an incredible number of them occur during vehicle stops, and guess what there is a ton of just sitting around during vehicle stops? This is a real, meaningful advantage to the .40. Does this overcome the reduction in capacity over a 9mm?

Who knows. Who cares? Folks that engage targets through barriers may choose to carry .40, while most people just carry whatever the heck they want. And the people at the pointy end (LE or .mil) that actually give a crap about this will carry what they are issued, show up with friends, and bring a long gun.

Out.

Metalboy · March 9, 2015, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Out.

Yes Sir OUT.

We can have our own opinion, what we can't have is our own facts. Good night.

Dashunde · March 9, 2015, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OP

Is .40cal on the way out?

Quote:

There is a whole industry infrastructure built up around producing handguns and their ammo chambered for .40 S&W.

Thats a good point and actually on-topic to the original OP.

What matters is that 40 does have strong following.
Its not going to lose significant favor and vanish anytime soon.

Whether or not 40 performs better/worse than 9mm is subjective and irrelevant.
Type till your fingers bleed... your not going to change anyones mind, either way.
Carry what you feel is right, hope you made the right choice.

As long as 40 is on the shelves regularly I'll keep buying it along with more pistols that fire it... maybe even a 9 or 45 now and then too, just maybe.

kcub · March 10, 2015, 04:05 AM

Has every one forgotten the post Sandy Hook ammo situation?

.40 was all there was to be had for a good while. That alone is reason enough to have one.

Limnophile · March 10, 2015, 04:08 AM

Quote:

It's not like the movies. People do not typically bleed out of the entry and exit wounds, so much as they bleed into their own internal cavities. In many cases there is little external bleeding at all, or certainly not enough to account for loss of blood pressure, etc.

I was being facetious. I'm sure a thoroughly penetrating shot doesn't typically leave a body-wide gaping hole one can see through, but an exit wound that is more than three-times as large as the entrance wound and the additional internal damage between where a weaker shot would have stopped and the exit wound have to count for something.

As to blood loss, in terms of stopping the bad guy, it doesn't matter whether the blood is lost externally or internally. Blood sloshing around in one's body cavity does no good. But, the goal of bullet design for self defense is to promote massive tissue destruction that will result in rapid bleeding that will cause a loss of blood pressure that produces the desired (non-psychological in this case) stop.

pblanc · March 10, 2015, 09:53 AM

I have seen quite a few handgun wounds up close and personal and operated on a few dozen.

In my experience, unless one knows the caliber going in, unless and until you find the projectile there is no way to accurately judge the caliber just judging by the injury pattern or degree of tissue destruction.

Those handgun exit wounds I have seen were not significantly bigger than the entrance wounds, maybe 50% bigger at most. They do tend to have a bit more jagged contour.

IMO unless one scores a hit on the upper central nervous system there is no physiological way to instantaneously drop an attacker. Yes, a direct hit on the heart or great vessels will likely (not invariably) be fatal, but even then the odds are good that a determined attacker will have time to shoot back at you before they drop.

Lacking a direct hit on the upper CNS, heart, or great vessels, or at least a major pelvic or femoral artery, a determined attacker could probably absorb over a dozen handgun hits before they lost enough blood to drop from hypovolemic shock. During that time they could probably empty a magazine at you.

Shotgun and high velocity rifle wounds are a completely different matter, obviously.

zombietactics · March 10, 2015, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pblanc

In my experience, unless one knows the caliber going in, unless and until you find the projectile there is no way to accurately judge the caliber just judging by the injury pattern or degree of tissue destruction.

Bingo ... this is consistent with every M.E. I've talked to, and every published source I've read. At least it's the case in the 9/38/357/40/45/10 range, but I', not going to put words in your mouth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Limnophile

As to blood loss, in terms of stopping the bad guy, it doesn't matter whether the blood is lost externally or internally.

True, but the point is/was that entry/exit wounds are not generally the means of a blood loss sufficient to incapacitate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verminator

Yes.....well, exactly what are the chances that the 9mm would have bounced off Brown's skull?

Are there many such cases documented?

Actually, there are documented cases of 9mm rounds bouncing off of someone's head ... and .40S&W ... and .45ACP ... and even 5.56mm rifle rounds.

CaptainO · March 10, 2015, 05:37 PM

I don't have a single .40 S&W, but have 5 10mm handguns (4 autoloaders and 1 revolver). I prefer the "flexibility" of the 10mm Auto cartridge over the capacity of the .40 S&W. (BTW, my Glock Model 20 holds plenty of ammunition, and has sufficient power to accomplish the task at hand.

It seems that the .40 S&W was conceived for the sole purpose of adding capacity to the magazines of FBI Field Agents.

Let it be so.

Scott

March 7, 2015, 12:27 PM	#101
FairWarning Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 1,149	.45 GAP and .327 Mag are pointless calibers that are going nowhere but to the obscurity bin. .40 however, fills a niche. There was a time when people thought it would dominate the popular market, but that hasn't come true and I am confident that it never will. I personally have no use for .40. If I want a carry gun, it's 9mm. If I want a full size holstered zombie gun, it's .45. If I want a high powered pistol for hunting or longer shots, it's .357 or .44 or 10 mm. __________________ Mauser Werke, Schmidt-Rubin, Colt, Walther, HK, Weatherby, Sig Sauer, Browning, Ruger, Beretta, etc, etc....a few friends of mine

March 8, 2015, 09:54 PM	#109
Metalboy Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2014 Location: SE. Wisconsin. Posts: 327	Let all .40's come my way, I just love them. At age 11, we have to fight the Ruszki tanks with Molotov cocktails. __________________ Hungarian by birth, American by choice. I don't collect guns.They just accumulate themselves.

March 9, 2015, 08:47 PM	#112
zombietactics Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2012 Location: Northern California Posts: 447	It's not like the movies. People do not typically bleed out of the entry and exit wounds, so much as they bleed into their own internal cavities. In many cases there is little external bleeding at all, or certainly not enough to account for loss of blood pressure, etc. __________________ __________________ NRA Certified Instructor • NRA Certified RSO • Certified Glock Armorer

March 9, 2015, 09:41 PM	#117
Metalboy Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2014 Location: SE. Wisconsin. Posts: 327	Your guess is as good as anybody elses, but it's only a guess. __________________ Hungarian by birth, American by choice. I don't collect guns.They just accumulate themselves.

March 10, 2015, 05:37 PM	#125
CaptainO Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 489	Strange... I don't have a single .40 S&W, but have 5 10mm handguns (4 autoloaders and 1 revolver). I prefer the "flexibility" of the 10mm Auto cartridge over the capacity of the .40 S&W. (BTW, my Glock Model 20 holds plenty of ammunition, and has sufficient power to accomplish the task at hand. It seems that the .40 S&W was conceived for the sole purpose of adding capacity to the magazines of FBI Field Agents. Let it be so. Scott

March 7, 2015, 12:58 PM	#102
CUBAN REDNECK Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: SW FLORIDA Posts: 318	I have pistols in both 9MM and .40 S&W. I like them both. It's a matter of application and need. I don't think that the .40 cal is going away anytime soon. We should also be wary of any massive switch to 9MM for law enforcement and then have some politicians attempt to enact European-like legislation prohibiting the civilian use of so-called military calibers such as the 9MM. Remember that there was PLENTY of .40 cal on the shelves during the post-Sandy Hook panic of 2013-2014.

March 7, 2015, 03:46 PM	#105
Cyanide971 Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2014 Posts: 725	Concerning .40 striker-fire pistols, don't forget the Steyr Family (L, M, C, and S).

March 8, 2015, 08:05 PM	#107
Arizona Fusilier Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2000 Posts: 1,082	Zombietactics, I think I have been following the thread closely; I respect your arguments and points made to date. However, you lost me on "penetration is a fail". Did I miss something? We were talking about the size of holes, and you suddenly seemed to make a pre-emptive strike on this angle. This is important given I have read some opinions that penetration is far more important than has traditionally been acknowledged. This is very important, because even with perfect shot placement, with inadequate penetration, all is for naught. And while we are talking about what's getting shot; let's not forget about body armor, automobile glass, leather jackets, the obese, etc.

March 8, 2015, 09:45 PM	#108
Kosmo K Member Join Date: December 16, 2014 Posts: 64	Going the way of the Dodo bird

March 9, 2015, 09:36 PM	#116
The Verminator Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2013 Location: Minnesota Posts: 268	Yes.....well, exactly what are the chances that the 9mm would have bounced off Brown's skull? Are there many such cases documented? I thought not.

March 9, 2015, 10:02 PM	#118
noonesshowmonkey Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2014 Posts: 329	These threads are hilarious. The amount of sacred cows trotted out and tarted up, threatened with slaughter, and then vehemently defended must be some kind of internet record. Not sure anyone has really addressed one of the key reasons .40 is going to stick around (just like the other not-9mm and not-.45 cartridges): logistics. There is a whole industry infrastructure built up around producing handguns and their ammo chambered for .40 S&W. Industry support is an animal far more worth considering than a deer. (LOL! I can't believe that even came up!!!) As a few folks have said: handgun rounds have anecdotal and statistically irrelevant differences in terminal effect across calibers. Shot placement and quantity of hits are far more the indicator of 'effectiveness', in which the 9mm beats out the .40, which beats out the .45. Pretty much the only thing that the .40 does, as someone has stated, is overcome barriers. It retains far more of its energy on impact, and after defeating, common barriers such as windshields. Even cursory searches into officer involved shootings will show an incredible number of them occur during vehicle stops, and guess what there is a ton of just sitting around during vehicle stops? This is a real, meaningful advantage to the .40. Does this overcome the reduction in capacity over a 9mm? Who knows. Who cares? Folks that engage targets through barriers may choose to carry .40, while most people just carry whatever the heck they want. And the people at the pointy end (LE or .mil) that actually give a crap about this will carry what they are issued, show up with friends, and bring a long gun. Out.

March 10, 2015, 04:05 AM	#121
kcub Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2010 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 3,318	Has every one forgotten the post Sandy Hook ammo situation? .40 was all there was to be had for a good while. That alone is reason enough to have one.

March 10, 2015, 09:53 AM	#123
pblanc Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 697	I have seen quite a few handgun wounds up close and personal and operated on a few dozen. In my experience, unless one knows the caliber going in, unless and until you find the projectile there is no way to accurately judge the caliber just judging by the injury pattern or degree of tissue destruction. Those handgun exit wounds I have seen were not significantly bigger than the entrance wounds, maybe 50% bigger at most. They do tend to have a bit more jagged contour. IMO unless one scores a hit on the upper central nervous system there is no physiological way to instantaneously drop an attacker. Yes, a direct hit on the heart or great vessels will likely (not invariably) be fatal, but even then the odds are good that a determined attacker will have time to shoot back at you before they drop. Lacking a direct hit on the upper CNS, heart, or great vessels, or at least a major pelvic or femoral artery, a determined attacker could probably absorb over a dozen handgun hits before they lost enough blood to drop from hypovolemic shock. During that time they could probably empty a magazine at you. Shotgun and high velocity rifle wounds are a completely different matter, obviously.