Need advice on a revolver and a long gun for brown bear country.

[Outdoorsman5]

My wife, 3 kids, & I are planning a trip either next summer or the next. We will spend 3 weeks driving from North Georgia to the Badlands, then to Glacier, then to Yellowstone, then to the Grand Tetons. We will hike a good bit & see the sights. I believe my Glock G29 in 10mm is not cut out for brown bear, so I want a new gun. I could use some help/advice on this.

I want a .454 casull. I can't decide between the Ruger SRH Alaskan .454 (2.5" barrel,) and the Taurus Raging Bull .454 (5" barrel.) What would you recommend I get?

I'm also planning on taking a long gun, but don't think I'll carry it that much for what we will be doing. I want to stick with what I have & don't want to buy a new rifle. I have an old Ithica 12 ga. pump and a Marlin .35 Rem lever action. I would use Breneke Slugs in the 12 ga. or Buffalo Bore's 220 grain hardcast ammo for the Marlin. Originally I was planning on taking the 12 ga., but then I read Chuck Hawks article here - http://www.chuckhawks.com/firearms_defense_bears.htm
After reading the 12th paragraph, I am now undecided on which one to take. Which one would you carry?

Thank You

[PetahW]

The .454 SRH & the 12ga pump - but most likely only the 12ga. (K.I.S.S.)

Since a good offense is the best defense:

Make plenty of noise while hiking, and try not to get between a sow & cubs ( big/smaller).
If one investigates you/yours, have everybody yell & make themselves appear as large as possible (wave arms ILO cower/behind).

Hopefully, the bear(s) will decide to move off.


.

[jglsprings]

Bear spray

Of course recommending that doesn't sell guns.

[booker_t]

The following are purely opinion, as I have never encountered a bear that I needed to shoot. I would, however, carry the following.

Revolver:
If you have the scratch and don't mind SA, I'd take a look at Freedom Arms Model 83 or similar. If not, Ruger Alaskan, but the 2.5" barrel will delay an accurate follow-up shot.

Long gun:
For $500 you can get a Marlin 1895G in .45/70 Govt.

[Outdoorsman5]

We'll have bear spray with us too, but I still want a gun. I like the pistol better for when we are around other people, but when on a trail I like the idea of having a long gun.

I've considered spending the money on a better rifle instead of on a revolver, but I think I'd carry the revolver more often. I've done a lot of hiking over the years and have noticed that the heavy stuff tends to get left behind.

[BigJimP]

There are no true "Brown Bear" in the lower 48 ....like the Alaskan Brown Bears or Kodiak ...that can get up to 1,400 lbs or so ....the Montana/Wyoming Grizzly is a much smaller animal - still formidable - but a big Grizzly in Montana / Wyoming is around 600 lbs.../ so you're talking very different things in terms of the two animals.

Check the regulations very carefully on carrying in any of the national parks / Glacier as an example/I was there last month - you have to meet all federal and Montana laws to carry ...and in some areas, like Visitor Centers, its posted that you cannot carry a weapon inside those facilities. To say the Rangers inside the park - are less than friendly toward the concept of carrying weapons - is an understatement ! I did not carry a weapon while I was there ...but I think you might have to declare the weapon when you enter the park.

Parks like Yellowstone ...are part in Montana and part in Wyoming..so you have other states to worry about rather than just Montana.

There are problems with Grizzlies in Yellowstone and Glacier ...not so much in the Tetons. A good bear spray, bell on your pack / staying on relatively heavily used trails - checking in with Rangers on bear activity are all smart options. There are a number of campgrounds where you cannot camp in soft sided tents because of common bear activity ( Avalanche campground on the west side of Glacier has had that restriction for many years ).

I hunted big game in northwestern Montana all my life/in Grizzly country all the time ...and I've only had to kill one Grizzly in 35 yrs of hunting. A .30-06 with 180 or 200gr bullets was my weapon of choice.../and while I carried a .357 mag or a .44 mag on my belt...I prayed I'd never have to use it on a charging bear ( because it probably won't be enough in most situations ) where a charge may come with the bear inside of 50 feet...if you surprise one on a trail / and I never did need it. The heavier the handgun caliber...the slower the follow-up shots are ...so something like a .454 Casull may sound sexy ...but it may not be any more practical than a .44 mag with 230gr bullets because you're only going to have 10 seconds or so to do whatever you decide you need to do.

If you still want to do this ...I think a revolver in .44 mag is your best choice / something like a S&W 629 in 3" - an RSR gun/ was my primary carry gun in the woods in a shoulder holster in summer - in winter or Fall I carried in a traditional belt holster / but I don't carry in Glacier because of the hassle / only in national forest when I was fishing, hiking, hunting. If I wanted to carry a large frame Freedom Arms ...I might carry a 4 3/4" in .44 mag ...not .454 Casull / but the 5 shot large frame even in a 4 3/4" is a 56 oz gun or so - so its pretty heavy/where a 629 can be almost a pound lighter. But my point is, in parts of NW Montana the alder brush along the trails is really thick ...and sometimes well over 6' high ...so things come up on you quick in the brush.../ same along lakes or rivers ...its really brushy / thats why you want to make a lot of noise ( bells, etc ) going thru those areas. If you're hiking up above the tree line ...its a whole different thing ...and you can see for a few hundred yards...but every terrain is a little different. Parts of Yellowstone are wide open / some of its brushy as well...but it tends to more open than Glacier. East side of Glacier is more open than the Western side of the park - west of the continental divide.

I'm not saying I wouldn't kill a bear in a national park if I had to ...but be prepared for a nightmare of problems if you do ..../ and if you wound a bear and don't kill it ...it might be even worse ! Its a big decision......

I've seen a lot of Grizzly ( maybe 30 or more encounters over the years ) in Glacier and in Yellowstone - a couple of them close / most of them at a distance on a sidehill, in a meadow or something....but 90% or more of the visitors don't see a Grizzly, especially in Glacier, unless they get into the back country - the main trails are heaviliy patrolled by Rangers especially if they know bears are in the area/or they close trails with bear activity often.

I don't think you can carry a long gun on any trails or anywhere in the park / it'll have to be concealed ...but check the regulations carefully.

[skidder]

Bear spray

Of course recommending that doesn't sell guns.

I used to pack pepper spray until I fired into a light breeze . If the bear is cooperative and agrees to stand downwind.... I have no problem with the spray.

I've lived in Grizzly country all my life (NW Montana) hiking the Cabinet and Glacier area. The minimum I would go with is a 44 mag.

[RalphS]

You don't have to inform the rangers if you bring a gun into a National Park but you do have to follow all state laws regarding open carry and concealed carry.

I've hiked in Yellowstone before they allowed guns in parks. We carried bear spray and never needed it. I doubt that you would be allowed to carry a long gun in a National Park. It would definitely freak out the tourists. The people who visit National Parks are much different than the people who go into a National Forest and not in a good way. Most of them think it's a petting zoo and will run up to any wildlife they see to try to get a picture.

My "National Park gun" is a 4 inch Redhawk in 45LC with 325 grain Buffalo Bore ammo or my own handloads. I can carry it in a OWB holster with a long shirt or jacket hanging over it and nobody will pay any attention to it.

Be advised that Grizzlies are federally protected in the lower 48. You can spray them all you want, but if you shoot one in self defense, you will be dealing with the feds and their lawyers.

I'm not a fan of shooting magnum loads out of snub nosed revolvers. I like to have at least a 4 inch barrel to get full powder burn, better ballistics, less recoil, and better aim. But given your choices, I would get the SRH Alaskan. Ruger builds heavy duty tools that last forever. Taurus builds junk.

[riomedinamike]

I spent (or wasted) the better part of this Friday afternoon in a doctor's waiting area, and I did read an article in "outside" mag (don't remember the month, but it was surely 2012) regarding the increased number of brown bear grizzly attacks in the lower 48 the past decade as the bear numbers continue to increase.

As for a pistol, I would follow the previous poster's recommendation and get a Ruger Redhawk in 45 colt or 44 mag, and stoke that puppy with heavy 300+ grain bullets from buffalo bore or similar loadings fox maximum penetration.

For me, as to all the "trouble" with park rangers, the govt, or their attorneys, compare that scenario as to having your wife and kids being buried as bear scat. You have the choice, including not hiking at all. You will make the right decision, and have a nice trip with some peace of mind.

Just make sure you practice with the hot loads. Some have opined a glock 20 with 180 gr fmj or 200 gr fmj might be a better choice, as it is a style of glock you are familiar with, and a full power 10 mm will penetrate.

[steidle2131]

Ruger makes a very strong revolver. I have a SRH in .454 casull though not the alaskan. I would definitly carry it in bear country. Although very good for hunting, if you plan on using it for defense a .44 magnum might pack a little lighter and still work very well.

[steidle2131]

You could just carry your 10mm. They make some very effective ammo for it.

[tet4]

If you are looking for a reason to get something new, get a 44 nagnum with a 4 inch barrel. If not, just go with your glock and good ammo. Forget the long guns, and have fun with your family.

[FJ4ZROX]

+1 for the G29....the 10mm can be loaded with some great loads, you get more rounds in the mag, and it's considerably lighter to carry/easier to conceal.

I just picked up a S&W 625 from a guy that wanted something just a powerful and lighter for carry in bear country. He took the money from selling the S&W 625 and purchased a 10mm glock (G20).

[dorc-1]

Have done all three parks in the last 12 months, and as long as you don't do anything stoopid......you will have zero problems. Unless you hit CNS, there isn't a handgun made that can drop a grizzly charged up on adrenaline.

Stay on high traffic trails and always, always have the spray on your belt with the clip off. If nothing else it will buy you time if you are that one in a million unlucky enough to have a dangerous confrontation.

Yellowstone and the Tetons will give you ample opportunity to see bears from the safety of your car. They don't haze the bears, and the open valleys are great places for animal viewing. Use trails that allow you to follow a group ahead of you. Wait in your car until a group shows up and let them lead the way.

Glacier is a whole different world. They haze the bears along the road, and the best chances to run into them is if you hike in the two medicine area in East Glacier or the Many Glacier trails. They are covered in huckleberries this time of year and the bears do cross the trails to gorge themselves. Be sure to hike to hidden lake and the highline trail at Logan Pass. You will see Mountain Goats and Big Horn Sheep up close. Just a beautiful area.

I felt very comfortable in both parks by simply using common sense. You want a big gun then buy one, but it will make little difference without proper shot placement on a very difficult to hit area about the size of your fist that is bouncing up and down and left and right.

You will never be able to discharge a rifle or shotgun quick enough unless you are cradling it while you hike. No need to put your family in a possible dangerous situation.

[totaldla]

Bring the shotgun with slugs for a camp gun. Carry your G29 to feel better. But invest in (2) 230gram cans of either UDAP or Counter Assault bear spray. For you and your wife.

I'm not anti-hogleg at all, but what you want is expensive, heavy, and requires a commitment to learn to shoot. You'll never carry any of the all-steel hog-legs no matter what you say on a forum - they're just safe-truck-range, range-truck-safe guns.

Bear spray is cheaper, excellent stop stats, and multi-use (works on people and pit bulls).

[badge851]

It's all about carrying what works the best for you. A Taurus® Raging Bull® 454 Casull Ultra-Lite® with a 2½" barrel will be a monster to control. You can get the same gun, albeit with a 6½" or 8⅜" barrel; and it will be far easier to control. The draw back is the weight, about 57-58oz IIRC.

To me it appears that you are looking for a large caliber "Trail Gun". I would suggest a Taurus® TRACKER 4"; either in 41 or 44 Remington® Magnum, with a 4" barrel.

When I'm in Bear Country here in WA state, (we have Grizzly also); I carry my Taurus® Mdl 425SS2 41 Remington Magnum. My gun is loaded with one of the two following loads..........
• Hornady 41 Rem Mag 210gr XTP #9077
• Buffalo Bore® 41 Rem Mag 230gr Keith SWC #16B/20

I'm not trying to change your mind as to caliber, just relating that you have other options.

[Smit]

I would think well placed shots with the 10mm would take care of business. Its a hot round, but .44 Mag is a nice security blanket.

[rambilt]

If thre's a slight chance of encountering a bear during your trip, I suggest you take no less than a 454.... Just my opinion...

[skidder]

I've encountered several bears, some stubborn and some not so stubborn (grizzlies only from a distance). The ones around here know what a gun is because they are hunted, but the protected ones have a different mindset. I've had to remove my gun and click the action to get them off the trail. This was after a minute or so of yelling and trying to get them to move. As soon as I clicked the action on my gun the black bear ran off. I've had other encounters where removing the gun from the holster was enough to make them leave the trail. The chances of an encounter are very slim, but I sure was glad I had my Redhawk. It gave me confidence and I'm sure that confidence was apparent when I removed it from the holster.

Man I could go on for hours... I've got Wolves and mountain lion stories too .
When my two boys were little we took them on a hike in the Cabinet Mountains "Flower Lake Trail". My youngest was in a backpack and the older, four years at the time, was running ahead with the dog. This was a short hike so I left my gun, not thinking I needed it. Well, my kid was a rambunctious little fart and kept running up the trail ahead of us. We lost sight of him for just a minute when my wife and I heard a blood curdling cougar scream from up ahead. I picked up a stick and ran as fast as I could and my little boy was still running like nothing happened. Fortunate for us I had trained my dog to retrieve horns. He always circled the first person on the trail looking for horns. My dog was doing his normal routine of circling when he bumped into the cat while it was stalking my kid. Let me tell you something, a cougar scream at close proximity is something you will never forget. Your hair on the back of your neck stands straight up. This was 12 years ago and my wife is still mad I didn’t have my gun with me.

My dad was a logger so I grew up with a chainsaw in my hands. I sawed the Kootenai and Yaak area for years. The problem with the animals is getting worse now that the hippies have turned the whole area into a big game preserve. The wolves and bears have more rights than the people.

I Better stop now. I might start telling you all how much I love hippies.

On a lighter note: Last weekend I was taking my family hiking, a real popular spot so I took my sp101. While driving to the trailhead a bear ran out in the road, but rather than run down the bank he stayed in front of the vehicle so I chased him for about a half mile (leaving plenty of room). In case anyone is curious how fast they can run. According to my speedometer he maintained 30 mph and peaked at 35. Never had I seen one stay in the road like this. I've chased moose for miles several different times, but never a black bear, it was rather bizarre?

OK I'm done rambling. Thanks for listening.

skidder

[jmr40]

There are no "Brown bear" within thousands of miles of where you will be traveling. There is a very rare possibility you will see a grizzly. Brown bear are a sub species of grizzly that live along the SE coast of Alaska and along some coastal areas of Russia and a few other places. Inland grizzlies are much smaller and far less agressive.

Leave the long gun at home. Bear spray is your best option and will be available in stores once you arrive in the area. The G-29, loaded with some of the hotter ammo will be fine and would be my choice. I carried a G-20 with Double Tap 200 Gr hard cast bullets that chronographed 1300 fps in my gun. If it will make you feel better buy and carry a 4" barreled 44mag. But you have more important things to buy, like gas. The gun you have will be fine.

Been there several times and a have yet to see a grizzly. About the only thing we didn't see.

[Outdoorsman5]

We live in North Georgia, and go hiking & camping regularly in black bear country. I always have my G29 with me (conceals well in my pocket.) I carry double tap 200 grain ammo, so I've got the best 10mm ammo for penetration. I have seen black bear a few times over the years, and they all have moved on after spotting us. I really don't want to shoot a bear, but would in self defense.

Our trip to Grizzly country has me thinking. I carry a concealed weapon regularly where allowed (keltec PF9 or Glock G27), so I'm not planning to change that behavior just because a few hippies might see my gun. On that note though I'd still rather carry a pistol, and carry it on my hip with my shirt over it keeping it mostly concealed. If anyone notices & decides to hassle me about it then I'd try to be patient with them, and not make a big deal out of it. I've been in several conversations with people that don't like/understand guns, and have found that a patient attitude with them is the best approach. In the end though, people can think whatever they want; I guess I don't care. I want to be prepared, and besides it's fun buying a new gun.

I have always considered it irresponsible to be out in the woods (hiking, camping, etc) without at least a pistol. I have read where bear spray works the best, so I plan on carrying both the spray and a gun. I'd use the bear spray first, and a gun if all else fails.

I like the suggestion to get a 4" 44 magnum and have considered it. It would pack well and shoot well. I've narrowed it down to these choices - Ruger Alaskan 454 (2.5" barrel & 44 oz), Taurus Raging Bull 454 (5" barrel & 51 oz), Ruger 44 mag (4.2" barrel & 47 oz), or S&W 44 mag (4" barrel & 41.5 oz)....I'm still undecided on what to get.

Which one would you get? Why?

[9mm]

I don't know your state laws, but an AK PISTOL/Draco is defined as "pistol" and can be carryed in my state concealed. A thought of replacing the long gun for it. Stuff it in your pack, if state law allows you. Thats a reason why I am looking at one, I can conceal a pistol with a rifle caliber. Good for trails.


IMO I buy the Alaskan 454, stay away from the S&W and Taurus. S&W has dumb IL and being such a high pressure caliber could turn the lock on quicker than a 38/357.

[RalphS]

I would get one of the Rugers. You can shoot heavy magnum loads with a Redhawk that would cause problems in the S&W. Taurus is not in the same league as Ruger and S&W in terms of quality but some people like them.

I have a 5.5 inch Redhawk in 44M and it will shoot a 325 grain Beartooth Bullet at 1324 fps and a 355 grain Beartooth Bullet at 1183 fps.

If you don't reload, Buffalo Bore sells a 340 gr. 44M round that does 1401 fps out of a 5.5 inch Redhawk. This load is not recommended for the S&W handguns, but a Redhawk handles it with no problem. A 4 inch RH would probably clock 1200 to 1300 fps with this load.

With these kinds of velocities with heavy, hardcast bullets from a 44 Magnum, do you really need a 454?

On another topic, if you want to see some real live brown bears when you visit Yellowstone, check out the grizzly park in West Yellowstone http://www.grizzlydiscoveryctr.com/
Most of the bears there are problem bears from Alaska and, of course, are much larger than anything you'll find in Montana.

Skidder - thanks for your post. It helps to hear the real life experiences from people who live in bear country.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

A Blackhawk in .45 Colt can do the job, for a lot cheaper than the other suggested weapons. Buffalo Bore makes a 325 grain bullet at 1325fps that would do nicely.

Then get yourself a lever gun in the same caliber.

[Outdoorsman5]

Thanks Skidder & others for the good info & advice.

Super Sneaky Steve, that looks like good advice on the 45 Colt. Can it handle the +P loads from Buffalo Bore or Double Tap? Looks to be on par with a 44 mag but with even heavier ammo. Am I right? How much cheaper is a blackhawk 45 Colt?