Shot Group Card

[sfmedic]

Comments? Would you add or delete of change anything?

[Al Thompson]

Upper left, should be "sight".

IIRC, this "may" be more applicable for one hand shooting, at least the ones from years back were. I'd have to find one of the old charts and look at the differences.

[sfmedic]

Your right - I have a bad habite using site - dont know where i picked it up from.


Im going to have these printed for students and have the fundamentals on the other side. Its going to be in kurdish so front sight will translate to "Stare kopeshi" any ways :-)

I actually pulled this out of an old manual i wrote (ST) It needed an update so thats what im doing - just wanted other instructors input

[Al Thompson]

Hmmm... Yours looks updated, though I don't see any specific two handed references, it does mention thumb pushing and "grip". Probably not a bad place to start diagnosing a problem.

This one is definitely bullseye (one handed) oriented:

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/training.htm

[sfmedic]

Not to go off thread here - but the point about one handed v. two handed shooting Ive kinda evolved or devolved on that exact same point.

I know a guy that does a lot of Youtube video stuff an old comp shooter - he brought up a point when he was talking about grip - his firing hand does the same thing as when he does offhand shooting and he refers to his non firing hand as merely an assist to the firing hand.

My jury is still out on that one but im inclining towards it. We diverge on several little things like firing hand grip strength and Im more of an Isosceles shooter and he's more inclined to the Weaver stance

(techniques are not fundmentals - if it works leave it alone)

[sfmedic]

im going to snag that card and integrate the following 11 mistakes(after edit) into a training aid

thanks

[Al Thompson]

he refers to his non firing hand as merely an assist to the firing hand

Interesting way to think about it. I do note that back when guys like me (old ) were starting to move from bullseye shooting to IPSC, we found that it was easy to speed up and get the hits needed. It was hard to try and get an IPSC (only) shooter to concentrate on the fundamentals. A sizable percentage of those folks had issues with targets beyond 12 yards or so.

[sfmedic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22msLVCtPk8

this is the vid that metions that point

I like his philosophy and teaching style

[Al Thompson]

I am aware of Hickock45, but don't think I'd use him for any instructions. From what I observed, he is far behind the curve on modern techniques.

The late, great Paul Gomez has a serious resume and made some outstanding videos before his sad demise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJOslIIfggk

[sfmedic]

Yea it was sad - he was pretty unhealthy but looked healthy - kinda makes you say hmmmm

Im a non firing thumb over firing thumb kinda guy myself :-) I know there are ways that would do me well but i keep with what I do best in this case.

if It was 20 years ago i would probably rotate my non firing hand forward but not because of anything on that video but because it gives you a more neutral position and "evens out the arms" :-)

i tride that for a couple months but it just didnt take it always felt forced and unnatural to me .

what would that alleviate on the above shot card?

[Bob Wright]

Well, to state the obvious: If the shooter is getting good groups likely the sights just need adjusting.

Or am I missing something?

Bob Wright

[dawg23]

Numerous times I've had a student getting consistently decent groups, with all shots low left.

Didn't take long to show that they were flinching consistently -- took slightly longer to resolve the issue.

[Nasty]

Al remembers well...I'm another old guy and former Bullseye & PPC shooter. We found that speeding up was pretty easy when it was based on solid fundamentals. Our fast groups were not that much worse than regular strings, no matter what range.

I see everyone now shooting at 3, 5, 7 &10 yards and enjoy having them come over to ask me what I am doing with my target at 25. Most frequent comment is "How are you doing that?" They don't seem to understand that if you do your part, group sizes only double between 25 & 50 yards, no matter how fast you do it.

*Fundamentals*

[Al Thompson]

what would that alleviate on the above shot card?

I don't know.

I plan to print the card and take it along on my next range session. Then we'll see.

[Bob Wright]

awg23:

Numerous times I've had a student getting consistently decent groups, with all shots low left.

Didn't take long to show that they were flinching consistently -- took slightly longer to resolve the issue.

If the student can shoot good groups low left and still be flinching, let him flinch and adjust the sights!

Bob Wright

[sfmedic]

Or.... correct the problem.

are you going to adjust sights on every gun he buys from then on ? Thats one of the reasons its important that the instructors know how to shoot. All it would take is one or two rounds fired by someone who can shoot to either confirm or disprove if its the gun.

If everyone fires the gun and it doing tight shot groups in the same spot then adjust the sights (if you can or if you can without screwing up the gun)

But if its not the Gun (usually the case) then the shooter needs to be corrected (thats what any good instructors are supposed to be able to do after all)- never adjust a gun to solve a problem caused by the shooter

in this case I think a little ball and dummy drill would be helpful.


never adjust an accurate gun - never offset aiming points (ky windage)

[Bob Wright]

sfmedic says:

If everyone fires the gun and it doing tight shot groups in the same spot then adjust the sights (if you can or if you can without screwing up the gun)

Not everyone sees the sights in the same way. My friend, the late Cecil Vick, had a S&W .357 Magnum, pre-Model 27, with 8 3/8" barrel. When he had the gun sighted in for him, I could never get close to the target. Same for him and my Super Blackhawk. We shot nearly a foot apart at twenty-five yards.

Likewise, my son-in-law could never hit with my Super Blackhawk, nor could I with his. Yet all three of us were very good shots with our own guns sighted in for our eyes.

Further, after I had cataract surgery several years ago, I had to re-sight all of my own guns.

And:

are you going to adjust sights on every gun he buys from then on ?

Well, certainly. I adjust the sights on every one of my guns as required to hit to roughly three inches high at twenty five yards. Most of my Rugers I sight in at twenty five yards with my pet load. I then place the rear sight about mid-height then file the front sight down to match. This allows me enough elevation to adjust when changing to a different load.

And, further:

never adjust an accurate gun

No matter how accurate a gun is, if I can't hit with it, I'm going to adjust the sights!


Bob Wright

[sfmedic]

if you were shoot low and the gun had no adjustment for elevation what do you do?

If you were to sell it - do you adjust it back?


im at a loss how anyone could see a sight differently - they still line up the sights the same way what would be different on a different shooter - front sight rear sight or your eye? The target is in the same place right?


if your not hitting where your aiming at consistently then your doing something wrong consistently.

if you bench your handgun and the top of the sights are level and equal daylight between the sights and you point of aim centered on the top of the front site post it will hit where your aiming.

so what are you doing to consistently miss?

as far as cataract surgery - as long as you have a clear focus on you front site i dont see why that would change anything

[Bob Wright]

if you were shoot low and the gun had no adjustment for elevation what do you do?

File down the front sight.

If you were to sell it - do you adjust it back?

No.

im at a loss how anyone could see a sight differently - they still line up the sights the same way what would be different on a different shooter - front sight rear sight or your eye? The target is in the same place right?

I don't know the answer to that, but I do know it was so. When I was in the Army, each M1 was sighted in to each individual's eyesight. As to why, I don't know. And, yes, the target was in the same place.

if you bench your handgun and the top of the sights are level and equal daylight between the sights and you point of aim centered on the top of the front site post it will hit where your aiming.

I never bench my revolvers to sight in as there is a big difference in the point of impact when benchresting and my two-hand hold. Further, bullet weight plays an important part in actual point of impact.

so what are you doing to consistently miss?

I fail to understand that question.

as far as cataract surgery - as long as you have a clear focus on you front site i dont see why that would change anything

All I know is that it did.

Bob Wright

[dayman]

I think different people hitting the target at different places with the same sights has to do with geometry. No two people are going to hold a gun (or their eyes/body) exactly the same, and tiny differences in the angle between your eye and the sights are going to work out to much more substantial differences down range. The length or your arms, the length of your neck, etc are all going to create minute differences in sight picture.
As far as things changing after cataract surgery, that's not super surprising as the surgery probably slightly changed the optic "sweet spot" on the surface of your eye. You probably - without noticing - have your eye held a little differnt than you did before.

[sfmedic]

so you take a perfectly good handgun and file down the front site - you know its worth zero after that ? So what will the new owner that can actually shoot do when he gets it?

your not sighting in a military rifle to adjust for individual "eyesight", your adjusting the weapon to be accurate - an individuals weapon can be adjusted on the bench if it needs to be - I often take a pickup load of AKs to the range with my good shooters and adjust the whole units weapons en mass . The ak front site alignment tools are far and few between and I hat the gaggle fxxk of going through BZO with new soldiers. Once its zero'd we work on fundamentals and everyone qualifies with that weapon - never had a problem with that

the sites shouldn't line up any different in a bench or in your hands - and no - at 25 meters its point of aim point of impact for all commercial rounds.

if your consistently missing the X or the black or whatever your doing something wrong - that needs to be corrected before you go filing down front sights - thats insane.


all im saying is if the gun shoots accurately you need to adjust your shooting - not the gun.


any problem can be fixed by a competent instructor - you should invest the money you lose on the guns value on a couple sessions with an instructor that knows what they are doing

and no - its not geometry the same points line up the same for everyone if they are using their fundamentals. Do you think the military of the world adjust accurate guns to compensate for poor shooters? No they train them to shoot correctly - I dont know what constitutes a "sweet spot" on an eye but the "geometry" would only adjust for the diameter if the width of the pupil (a fully dilated pupil at most)

[Bob Wright]

so you take a perfectly good handgun and file down the front site - you know its worth zero after that ? So what will the new owner that can actually shoot do when he gets it?

I've taken a fair amount of game, won a few pistol matches, been on a couple of pistol teams, and done some stunt shooting in my time. Not too bad for not being able to actually shoot. My guns worth zero when I sell them? I don't think so.

This gun has had its sights "tweaked" some:



Doesn't look worthless to me.

the sites shouldn't line up any different in a bench or in your hands - and no - at 25 meters its point of aim point of impact for all commercial rounds

.

The sights don't line up any differently, the gun recoils differently. And the Federal 180gr JHP and the Winchester 240 gr. JHP won't shoot to the same point. Both are commercial .44 Magnum rounds.

......you should invest the money you lose on the guns value on a couple sessions with an instructor

Funny thing, I've never lost money on any gun I've sold or traded, usually made a tidy profit.


Bob Wright

[dayman]

Similar triangles would say that to be 2" off at 25yds your eye would only have to be ~.06" off - assuming the distance from your eye to the gun is 2'. It wouldn't account for big changes, but it could account for something. I don't think it's that unheard of for two people who shoot well to shoot the same gun to a slightly different poi.
Bob seems to know what he's talking about, and I'm willing to believe that he's not lying about his poa changing after his surgery, so something must have happened. The eye's point of focus shifting was my best guess. I could absolutely be wrong.

[Al Thompson]

Autochuckers are fairly placid about POI being "generally" the same with factory loads (.45 ACP excluded), but revolvers are a whole different critter. Obviously an autoloader has to have it's ammo loaded to a certain level or it won't cycle, but a wheelgun cares not if you load a wax bullet or an Elmer Kieth Memorial Magnum.

IME, it's quite possible for different shooters to have very different POI/POA issues with fixed sight handguns. It really does not show up till you get past 10 or 15 yards or shoot at small targets. The B21 targets hide a lot of this in many organizations.

[sfmedic]

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree Bob. As long as you disclose to the person you sold it too that the guns sights were filed and that he isnt going to use it for anything but paper punching and hes fine with using Ky Windage

Al i still dont get the whole "geometry" and perspective notion and how an accurate gun can be inaccurate in the hands of an accurate shooter

I cant find the math - if the eye A has only .2 inches of play (actually .1 inches if centered in the pupil) and the distance to B is 24 inches (high side for long arms) were dose the "variable come in??

B is not an intersection but an endpoint in the equation because b,c,d are not a variance in a shot - it lines up like it lines up ?




and as long as a proper site picture is used:






what can affect a "perspective" - you either have a gun lined up or you dont - This has been vexing me since bob posted - I have nightmares of a poor little gun screaming in pain "I DIDNT DO ANYTHING WRONG" as bob files the poor little guys sight post down in his dungeon