9mm lead bullets keyholeing

[dick w. holliday]

Went with a buddy today who was shooting lead bullets in his P9--CZ. he was using about 4.5 gr of 231 and a 125 gr lee bullet. is there a quick fix for this problem such as more powder-less powder or should he just forget about this particular barrel/bullet combination. Forgot to mention he was shooting a 9X21 and keyholeing occured at 25 yards but not with every round. Some were completely sideways and some appeared to be yawed slightly...Any suggestions???? As always-thanks in advance----Dick

P.S. Take a kid shooting

[Nukem]

Might try to slug your barrel and see if the bullets are sized for it.

[Wild Romanian]

I fire many thousands of lead 9mm bullets through a variety of 9mm pistols. I have never used the Lee bullet so I cannot comment on its effectiveness. When bullets keyhole they may due so for a variety of reasons. Velocity is usually the last variable. I use the orginally 9mm bullet the Lyman 356402. It was designed for the 9mm luger and weighs about 121 grains when cast of wheelweights and lynotype metal. The bullet you use must have enough bearing surface to spin the bullet and it must fit the bore of the weapon. Generally speaking most 9mm pistols will function fine when the bullets are sized to either .355 or .356. Use a good lube such as 50/50 alox. Keep the barrel clean and fee of lead deposits. Rifleing that is full of lead will not spin the bullet and will create a dangerous condition which could cause the gun to blow up. I hope I am not scaring you about using cast bullets because they can be used successfully and safely for many thousands and thousands of rounds if the guns are kept clean. Any copper that has been built up in the bore due to the shooting of jacketed bullets must also be removed before you will get good accuracy with cast bullets. Never shoot jacketed bullets followed by cast bullets. The copper build up from the jacketed bullets is detrimental to fine accuracy and will cause a build up of excess leading. To get rid of the copper wet the inside of the barrel with hopes no. 9 solvent and let sit for 2 hours and then push a clean patch through the bore and observe if there are any black (powder) streaks or green streaks (copper deposits). It there are repeat as necessary until the patches come out reasonalby clean. This could take quite a few soakings to the bore.
To summerize, make sure the bullet fits the bore, make sure the bore is clean, use a bullet with a lot of bearing surface (lyman 356402), use a good bullet lube and then if all else fails increase the velocity. I have shot bullets a slow as 800 fps with fine accuracy in 9mm pistols.

Hope this helps, ozi buna, (have a good day) WR.

[sundog]

In my experience, most key holing is due to bad bullet fit - the bullet is too small diameter. Particularly in the 9mm, the tighter a lead bullet the better. Problem is the wide dispersion of bore diameters that a 9mm. Slug the bore and then go .001 to .002 over. I've even used bullet designs for .38/.357 in the 9mm with excellent results up to the 158 gr RN. In my estimation the Lyman 356402 is NOT the best 9mm bullet in lead although it does work (I've used alot of them). My favorite is the RCBS 147 gr TC. Heavy and tight is the name of game. As far as WR's comment about Hoppes 9 being a copper solvent, it's not, but he is right about getting the bore clean before shooting lead. Shooter's Choice Copper Solvent, Hoppes Benchrest, and few others are good copper solvents. sundog

[Wild Romanian]

Reply concerning hopes no.9

Hopes no. 9 contains 6 per cent ammonia. Hopes's bech rest contains 3 per cent ammonia. Hope's 9 is quicker acting than Hope's bench rest and shooters choice because of the higher ammonia contentn. The current thinking is that ammonia may dammage rifle barrels and this is the reason hope's came out with the weaker solution (bench rest solvent). Hope's claims that neither of its solutions will damage the bore of a firearm. This is probably true because I have been using it for over 30 years with no problems whatsoever. This information came to me via a phone call placed directly to the Hope's company several years ago when the new theory about ammonia damaging rifle bores first came to light. Hope's no. 9 has been removing copper deposits for me for over 30 years and it is very quick acting. It will start to disolve copper in just a few minuets of soaking but the longer you leave it in the better job it will do to take out powder and copper fowling. If anyone doubts my word take a copper penny that is tarnished and put a drop of hope's no. 9 on it and let is sit for awhile. Then take a rag and wipe the tarnish off and you will have a new looking bright shiny penny. If you desire a quick acting and extremely strong bore cleaner you might want to try Sweets. It is has a great deal of ammonia in it. If you smell a patch soaked in it, it will literally knock you off your feet. Run a patch of it back and forth through the bore a couple of times but then you must remove all traces of it immediately. Do not let the bore soak in this type of solution because of its extreme strength. I would only use it on an old bore that had a great build up of copper in it.
To summerize, you can use any of your favorite bore cleaners to clean the copper out, some take longer than others but make no mistake about hope's no.9 , it is one of the oldest copper removing solvents on the market and it is still a great favorite with a lot of my friends. I once restored an old 6.5 swedish rifle from shooting 3 inch groups to shooting 3/4 inch groups simply by repeated cleanings with hope's no. 9. The rifle was manufactured in l903 and had probably never been properly cleaned in almost 85 years. Hope's gave it new life. You cannot ask more from the famous old solvent.
AS far as the lyman 356402 not being the best bullet for the 9mm. We ran a test with several 9mm pistols shooting them from a Ransom rest with 3.8 grains of Bullseye. AT 25 yards we got 1 inch groups from two different 9mm pistols. ONe was a sig P210 and the other was a Browning high power. Use what ever bullet you like best but the lyman bullet is real winner. W.R.

[dick w. holliday]

just happened to remember an occasion with my AR15 9MM. i was shooting the lyman 147 boattail looking 9mm bullet. they were keyholing in that gun. my guess is that they had not been sized at all-since i use Lee tumble lube a lot of the time. The Lee 125 gr tumble lubed bullet unsized shoots good in the same gun for maybe 150 rounds or so then it goes wild- my guess is that barrel leads up or my smith comp gets so much lead in it that its doing something to the bullet while passing through the comp. I'll have to experiment on that....Dick

[WESHOOT2]

Also try varying OAL, and try different "speed" powders.

[sundog]

W.R. Kinda curious about something. I poked around on Hoppes web sight and did not see any ingredient list. I did a little testing on a copper fouled bore and the Hoppes #9 did not remove the copper. How is it that for years we have been running a wet #9 down the bore as a final pass and put the gun away and no damage? Back to the test, copper removed just fine with the Hoppes Bench Rest. Just kinda curious where you got your information on ammonia content. sundog

[FewerNines]

Since 1982 (according to wikipedia.com) the American penny is 97.5 percent zinc.

[Shane Tuttle]

The OP hasn't been logged on here since 2003!

Why did you dig up this ancient thread and respond to it knowing full well it was archived?