Can't Kill

[johnwilliamson062]

I would buffalo hunt if it was more economical than buying the meat from a supplier.

[SavageSniper]

I would not shoot a bald eagle unless I had to. Just seems wrong. Anything else would get far less concern, even other birds of prey weather I can eat it or not. My species has spent millions of years getting to the top of the food chain and I will not give it up to some bunny or tree hugger

[armsmaster270]

"Quote P97"
My answer to this question is I can kill anything that I have to for survival, but don't like to kill anything for the fun of killing. I do kill for food and wildlife control.
__________________

What he said

[wpcexpert]

The only animal I wouldn't kill, even if legal, was a Gorilla or chimp. Don't really have a reason. Everything else, if it's legal to do so, bring it.

I can see the sneaking up thing on a deer would be a thrill to get away with it. I can also sneak up on my dog ... or even the old lady's cat but I ain't gonna shoot 'em. And also, 'Thinning 'em out helps the population'. That's BS and you know it. Who the hell was around in 1700 with friggin scopes and 30-30's to do the thinning? Uh.. well no one. That's right.

WOW. Obviously you don't hunt. There wasn't anyone around with scopes thinning herds and populations in the 1700's. But also there were about 300 million less people in the US. You need to do some more research about the topic before getting all fired up and disrespecting someones passions and jobs.

Here are the cliff notes:
- Humans have invaded the homes of animals. Every town, sub-division, and home. There is less room for the animals to live. So humans have to keep populations down or mother nature will.
- Food wasn't as abundant in 1700. The tremendous agriculture we have today is another reason there are so many animals. There is more food, thus equals more to go around, equals more animals.
- Whitetail deer populations are about 1000 times more today than they were in the 1700s. More deer equals more predators.
- We have tried the don't shoot the deer thing. At first, somewhere in the mid-west(I can't remember where) there was no regulation on hunting. They nearly wiped out the deer population. They were reintroduced, with no hunting. They all died again because there weren't enough predators to control the population. Mother nature is a B**** if you let her run her course. I don't know if you have ever seen a deer that is starving to death in the winter. I have, it was pitiful and sad.

Bottom line, hunting and wildlife population management is a necessity in todays age. With the human population growing and expanding. Everyday, hundreds(if not more) of acres of wildlife homes are taken away. Where do YOU expect them to live? Now you are putting more deer in a smaller space. A space that could only hold a certain number of deer in the first place.

Here is where I stand:
Wildlife
Population
Control
Expert

[Art Eatman]

Dragon55, after you read up on things like carrying capacity of the habitat and population dynamics of species, come back and offer your opinions. But until you have a decent grounding in those subjects, don't betray your lack of knowledge by saying what you did. You're bucking up against folks with decades of experience and more than a trivial amount of technical education in wildlife biology.

Sure, you have a right to your opinion, but that particular opinion is invalid. "Not all opinions are created equal."

, Art

[Daryl]

Is there any animal that you just couldn't shoot?

Nope. As long as it's in season, and I'm carrying the required licenses and/or tags, I'll pretty much take the shot.

But, there really should be some purpose to it. I'll shoot vermin to help with damage control, or game animals for food. Without a good reason to shoot it, I'd just as soon let it be.

Daryl

[piratecountry]

No desire to shoot a bear, either black or griz. I have eaten bear and it was good but have no desire to hunt them. Good times for people that do. I surely don't look down on them or begrudge them. We have some big black bear in NC.

dan

[djohn]

I Got my Hunting license when my friend nagged me to no end to go Hunting with Him,So I applied did the hunting class hours and passed.I finally went hunting 12 gauge slug and I have No experience In Hunting so my friend was the teacher err,What a piece of work he is. first off he made more noise entering the forest Good gosh and If there where any deers they new we where there.We found are spots and waited in one spot freezing my ars off all day not one dam deer to be seen.After hours of senseless BS we left and He had the compass So I followed the nimrod and we got lost thanks a lot Daniel Boone. Then finally came out to a road about 2 miles away from his truck.On top of that as we where just about to exit beyond safe hunting grounds guess whats on the other side of the road that continues back to the forest.Yep a 10 point buck at nearly the edge of the street and my friend spots it and is ready to blast bambie across a main rd good God help me.My thoughts where that I am going to jail. I looked I could see in its eyes and to be honest it was one of the most beautiful creature and my heart melted.So why my buddie was loading back up I found a nice big rock and through it to scare the deer away it worked.MY friend was ****** to almost the point I thought I was walking Home with a shotgun over my shoulder.Since then Nope sorry I Love deers and will not ever go hunting for deer especially with this dude beside that it ended are friendship.

[Chui]

There is NO THING that I could just shoot for the sake of shooting. It's just not in me. There are some things I'd never hunt: Top Predators; Big Cats; Bears. Other animals I'd never put a bead on or cross hair on: elephants, hippos, rhinos. Essentially, if I won't eat it I won't hunt it. If it eats meat then I feel "connected" to it (we both hunt). If he lets me alone (and I'll do little more than watch them) then they are free to do as the please as long as it's not chew/claw on me.

[zahnzieh]

Never cared to shoot a coyote until I saw what real vermin they are. Carriers of disease for humans and animals, dog killers. Have seen a deer whose antlers caught on a fence disemboweled and eaten alive by these brutes! Friend of mine's dairy cow giving birth in the field, calf pulled out and eaten, cow hemmorhaged to death. Cant say i like shooting birds neither, too stupid!

[Casimer]

Giraffes, Otters, Kittens ..

and Pikachus



My niece would never forgive me.

[Capt. Charlie]

Ya know, when I was young, I shot darned near everything and never gave it a thought. One day, or maybe it was over time, I woke up to find that I wasn't comfortable with killing any more.

I'll still shoot coyotes in a heartbeat, or anything else that needs killing, but I just don't get a thrill out of it any more. It's just a chore that needs doing.

Maybe, and I don't want to sound melodramatic or such, after years in law enforcement and seeing a lot of death, I came to realize the value of life. Maybe I'm just getting older. I don't know.

At any rate, I did miss the thrill of the stalk, and I still enjoy shooting, so I cut down an old rifle stock, modified it to accommodate my old Nikon F2 with a long lens and motor drive, and ran a cable release through the trigger guard.

I still hunt and stalk, and shoot a "rifle" at critters, but my trophies are photos and my Boone and Crockett shots make it to wildlife & nature magazines rather than my wall.

[djohn]

Yes coyotes are Growing by the numbers Here In CT,They are killers of peoples pets live stock and can pose a danger to small children and perhaps adults and is a growing problem for farmers.It is time to break out the snipper riffles and weed them out.

[wyobohunter]

"I don't begrudge anyone who wants to hunt anything but I have no interest in Buffalo "hunting". You could dress up an old milk cow with big horns and get just as much challenge."

While this is likely true in most lower 48 hunts with semi-tame and partly penned animals; it is not the case for Alaskan Buffalo hunting. Look into hunting the wild herds up north and let me know if you still stand behind that generalization.

[wyobohunter]

It cracks me up when people have one or more mall ninja rambo guns (for killing other humans and nothing else I presume) and or will sit there chewing on a beefsteak (they don't count as animals?) talking about how they could "never shoot a beautifull animal such as a deer". I'd rather hang out with a vegetarian; at least he wouldn't be a hypocrit.

[Hirlau]

+1 Captain Charlie

Quote; "Maybe, and I don't want to sound melodramatic or such, after years in law enforcement and seeing a lot of death, I came to realize the value of life. Maybe I'm just getting older. I don't know."

I feel the same way, it's not age.

I have tried not to post on this thread, because my views conflict with senior members here on the hunting issue; otherwise I agree most of the time on their other posts.

If a problem exists, two or four legged, then I do what I have to. I first must ask and answer the question," Is is necessary?"
My Grandfather and Uncles taught me to hunt when I was young, continued through high school; then life got fast and busy.

I have an 11 year old son, don't think I will teach him the skill. I can't answer the above question with a, "Yes".

His firearm skills are progressing well. They are more centered around handling proficiency and home/self defense.

I wonder often if there is a benefit to teaching him to hunt in this day and era. Maybe I am afraid to remove his "innocence".

I do understand and agree on the "population control" of some species in certain areas, for the benefit of all.

God knows I do love the taste of wild pork & venison, my stomach betrays me.


I feel that hunting in some cases has become a game/sport ( baiting with 50 yard shots from a well stocked tree house, African game shot among the mango /palm trees on someone's 100 acre backyard.

Has the Art/Skill of hunting left us?

[MikeinLA]

First, a few caveats....I'm a "city" guy and have never lived near the woods. I've never had predators attack my cattle or chickens and I've always lived within a few miles of a supermarket. The argument of population control has been explained to me and I do get it. I'm not sure I understand why if there are just SO MANY deer that they need to be thinned, why does it take all day to get lucky and see one wander by? Hmm. You would think they'd be all over the place, wouldn't you? I'm also not sure how you know you're not shooting the strong ones who would have survived the winter. I think I appreciate bowhunters a bit more than LR scope hunters, there just seems to be more skill involved in stalking to get in close. I also appreciate hunters who stalk game who can, and may, kill them instead. That seems more sporting. I mean, shooting a deer with a high powered rifle from 100 yards, where's the sport? Why not just carpet-bomb the woods? I could certainly kill a wild animal who was terrorizing the neighborhood, but that's hunting for a purpose in my mind. And I DO consider animals who are raised like crops (beef, etc) to be different than animals in the wild. I have absolutely NO disrespect for hunters, I was just not raised around it. I also kid my buddy who blew 80 grand on a boat so he can go out and catch a few hundred bucks worth of fish. Like I said, I'm a "city" guy. Popping a bullseye on a target gives me all the satisfaction I need. Maybe one of you guys ought to take me hunting. I'd probably love it and then we could all have a good laugh.

Mike

[hogdogs]

Mike, Very well put and I will politely rake you over the proverbial coals...
From bottom to top...

Maybe one of you guys ought to take me hunting. I'd probably love it and then we could all have a good laugh.

I would take you up on that... A dogs on hogs no guns hunt... That is about as up close and personal as I can find. Should be fairly easy for you to "justify" as these are are crop damaging feral hogs.

I also kid my buddy who blew 80 grand on a boat so he can go out and catch a few hundred bucks worth of fish.

I too am guilty of being an offshore sport fisherman... If I never spend another dime doing it, I will never get my fish under $700 per pound in my whole life if I limit out every trip I go on for free... But the time and research planning the trip and taking care of boat and gear is as much fun as the fish fight... And I know how fresh my fish is. Try sushi of yellow fin while it has never been in a cooler and tell me you enjoy it the same in a restaurant following such experience.

And I DO consider animals who are raised like crops (beef, etc) to be different than animals in the wild. I have absolutely NO disrespect for hunters, I was just not raised around it.

But they are all living creatures. If a bible believer than all the animals are here to provide for man as are the grains of the earth. Ask the cow in line at the slaughter house how they feel as they walk the "green mile".

I could certainly kill a wild animal who was terrorizing the neighborhood, but that's hunting for a purpose in my mind.

I feel killing without purpose is wanton waste of wildlife as do most game law makers. But purpose to you is different than to me and my purpose is different than that of a trophy rack hunter. For me, I am able to reduce the food bill at home to the tune of pennies per pound if I get more than 2 deer with one round each... The purpose for the rack hunter is to put a big set of antlers on the wall which requires planning the hunt and restraint in letting the little guy walk. I just hope they eat the meat or give it to someone who will.

I think I appreciate bowhunters a bit more than LR scope hunters, there just seems to be more skill involved in stalking to get in close. I also appreciate hunters who stalk game who can, and may, kill them instead. That seems more sporting. I mean, shooting a deer with a high powered rifle from 100 yards, where's the sport? Why not just carpet-bomb the woods?

Many bow hunters use superior wallets to fund superior spending on superior camo and scent control items as well as high dollar calls. Many rifle hunters stalk to prey. I am one and I usually wear just an old camo shirt from the yard sale table and a pair of jeans. It isn't as easy as you realize to send a bullet on even a short 100 yard trip. It must fly true and not find so much as pine needles in flight that will send it errant.

I'm also not sure how you know you're not shooting the strong ones who would have survived the winter.

By strong we are not after the sick or afflicted. It is the genetically strong deer that produce the bigger better quality specimen we try to conserve... Momma ain't gonna be happy if I feed her a sick deer:barf: But a small bodied older deer with small racks produce likewise weak offspring.

The argument of population control has been explained to me and I do get it. I'm not sure I understand why if there are just SO MANY deer that they need to be thinned, why does it take all day to get lucky and see one wander by? Hmm. You would think they'd be all over the place, wouldn't you?

The reason you do not see them everywhere you look is due to hunting and other controls. There is an island off the coast of Cali that had elk and hog issues due to no hunting and they are destroying a delicate ecosystem unique to that spot.
Also if you spend some time in areas with limited deer season and meager bag limits you will see higher pressure placed on crops and may even see the starving deer others mentioned or you may hear of the WHOLE HERD exterminations completed by paid sharp shooters so they can burn and bury them as they are diseased. Around me we have a HEAVY population as well as many car accidents caused by deer. But if you get off the paved roads and keep your eyes and ears open, if they are moving, on any given morning or evening you may get to see a dozen or more healthy deer, many of which will have presented shot opportunity if we were hunting.

First, a few caveats....I'm a "city" guy and have never lived near the woods. I've never had predators attack my cattle or chickens and I've always lived within a few miles of a supermarket.

Ain't life a bugger!!! Not all of us get to live in paradise... I feel for ya! I have never lived out of reach of at least a decent little country store that sells meat but I have been too poor to let out the heat or air conditioning opening their door... As "Hirlau" said above your post "my stomach betrays me"... We have a country store that sells pork from the smaller meat packers who buy pigs from smaller farms and I assure you the crap in a chain supermarket doesn't compare and my wife saves 33% at least.
Then there is the wild pork that tastes even better. Deer IMHO has a flavor all it's own and not everyone will love it but most will find it, at minimum, satisfying....
Thank you for understanding I tried to post this in a respectful way and was not intending to offend you or your opinion in the least...
Brent

[Brian Pfleuger]

Look into hunting the wild herds up north and let me know if you still stand behind that generalization.

All generalizations fall apart at some point.

[FrankenMauser]

Even after more close calls and mock charges than I would ever want... I really have no intention to kill a bear; whatever it's color may be.

Bears aside, I really have no desire to hunt species that don't offer a challenge. Animals that let you walk to within 20 yards of them, in plain sight, just don't appeal to me. It's the hunt that gets me out in the woods.

[Art Eatman]

Generalization: Young folks don't have a lot of judgement about killing and can lack discrimination. As they mature, the whole ethics deal becomes part of their hunting. With more age, teaching young folks becomes as important as their own kill. Older folks, then, do less hunting and more teaching and socializing around a campfire.

Part of teaching a youngun about hunting MUST include teaching about ethics. That is an adult's responsibility, a father's duty to his son. "Guns'n'huntin'" are part of the real world, and there is no way to know if a non-hunting 12-year-old will or will not begin hunting later in life. If the ethics are already in place, duty is done.

One of the best reads on this whole subject is Robert Ruark's "The Old Man And The Boy". Very enjoyable vignettes of growing up in the world of hunting and fishing, but more lessons in ethics than any university text ever thought of.

[Art Eatman]

MikeinLA, one thing to remember is that deer spend 365 days a year in the practice of being a deer. Part of their deal is to avoid predators. Wild predators also spend 365 days a year being predators.

People spend only a few days a year being predators.

The population dynamics of deer is a geometric progression. A doe can be impregnated at 1.5 years of age--as can her doe fawns. A doe can easily produce five doe fawns in a breeding lifetime. If there is sufficient cover via thick vegetation, you're back to the 365 days a year thing. Lotsa deer, but hard to find.

About forty or fifty years ago, the Michigan wildlife folks erected a deer-proof fence around 100 acres of thick forest. They made sure that there was a near-maximum population of deer inside, but not above the carryiing capacity of the food supply. They then let hunters in, with controls of numbers and length of hunt. Lots of deer, lots of hunting time. The success rate was around three percent. This was a rather uncommon circumstance, of course, but it serves to show how thick cover can provide security against human predation.

As far as the tools, I've occasionally offered a deal to a doubter: I'll set up a camera rifle. There will be crosshairs in the focal plane of the camera. The trigger of the rifle will control the shutter. Zoom lens of at least 3X. All the doubter has to do is provide me with a print of the crosshairs in the correct location for a kill-shot on a running deer at a hundred yards or thereabouts--and he can collect $1,000. If not, pay me. Simple enough deal: Find Bambi, kick him out of bed, raise up and shoot. Kill Bambi. He's only going 30mph; oughta be easy.

[davlandrum]

Hirlau,

I wonder often if there is a benefit to teaching him to hunt in this day and era.

Not taking you to task - your choices do not have to match my choices.

There are many things today that you can make the same arguement about. I wonder often if there is a benefit to teaching my kids how to change the oil in the car in this day and era. After all, there is always a "Wonder-lube" around that will do it for you for $29.99.

Or change a tire (there is always AAA), or plant corn and beans, or dig potatoes (grocery store), or feed the chickens so we have eggs (and clean the coop).

There is value, at least in my mind, in doing the work to reap the reward. The world is not always about instant gratification or taking the easy way.

For me personally, I am never more alive than while hunting. No job, no cell phone, no static - just me and nature. Sometimes I am good enough to kill an animal, sometimes the animal is better. It is OK either way. And if I do kill a deer or an elk, I have made a choice to take full personal responsiblity for that death to put food on my table.

How many people would eat at McD's, if they had to personally kill the cow and butcher it?

Again, I don't walk in your shoes so this is not judgemental, just my perspective.

Dave

[Hirlau]

Quote:
" Not taking you to task - your choices do not have to match my choices.

I don't understand this sentence; how could you take me to task?

There are many things today that you can make the same arguement about. I wonder often if there is a benefit to teaching my kids how to change the oil in the car in this day and era. After all, there is always a "Wonder-lube" around that will do it for you for $29.99.

Or change a tire (there is always AAA), or plant corn and beans, or dig potatoes (grocery store), or feed the chickens so we have eggs (and clean the coop).

You obviously missed the point of my post. Changing the oil, tires,or feeding the chickens ( all things my 11 year old has done) have nothing in similarity with the issue of teaching my son to hunt or not.

There is value, at least in my mind, in doing the work to reap the reward. The world is not always about instant gratification or taking the easy way.

Agreed !

For me personally, I am never more alive than while hunting. No job, no cell phone, no static - just me and nature. Sometimes I am good enough to kill an animal, sometimes the animal is better. It is OK either way. And if I do kill a deer or an elk, I have made a choice to take full personal responsiblity for that death to put food on my table.

How could you NOT be fully responsible for the kill, choice or not?

How many people would eat at McD's, if they had to personally kill the cow and butcher it?

Probably not many, mainly because they're too damn lazy; nothing to do with the methods of the kill & butcher of the animal. If anything , I find this generation to be less sensitive/responsible on the issues of life and death. Thank God , most of this generation has no interest in hunting.

Again, I don't walk in your shoes so this is not judgemental, just my perspective."[/B]

Our current environments are probably different, but our "shoes" are stamped with the same manufacturer's label, I bet


John
USMC[/COLOR]

[Art Eatman]

Okay, we're drifting off-topic. Before posting--whether new or repetitive--go back and read the opening post. Either post in relation to it, or don't post.

Take personal argument to PM or email.