Not Guilty of Making an illegal Firearm by Mental Defect?

MTT TL · February 21, 2012, 10:40 PM

I must admit, this case has me baffled. Here is a man, clearly mentally ill, who makes gun in which to kill himself then calls a a suicide hotline as a last grasp. They take him to the hospital for treatment and then

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...R_story_1.html

Quote:

Shortly after Duvall was released from the hospital, he found himself in trouble again. This time with the law.

Duvall, who served in the Navy and lives outside Roanoke, now faces four federal counts related to manufacturing and possessing the homemade gun, which could lead to a 40-year prison sentence.

So I was wondering. If he is crazy enough to get locked up in a mental hospital is he crazy enough to get relieved of the charges that lead up to him trying to make good on his mental state?

For the record the guy is a combat vet with the first Gulf War and Somalia to his record.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 22, 2012, 08:36 AM

I don't understand the charges. It is legal for anyone who is not a prohibited person to make ("manufacture") a firearm for their own, personal use. Since that is not illegal, how can they charge him for it?

Willie Sutton · February 22, 2012, 09:20 AM

State Law likely is the issue.

Can't say what the law is there, but if it's like NJ, you need a license to manufacture a firearm, even if for personal use. Federal Law might be OK with it, but under State Law it might be a criminal act.

Willie

.

Don H · February 22, 2012, 11:19 AM

Federal charges, eh? It's possible that the firearm he manufactured is a SBS or SBR. There's a few other possibilities, including that he's a prohibited person.

MTT TL, some people who are "crazy" are quite functional and rational in areas other than that of their illness.

vranasaurus · February 22, 2012, 01:30 PM

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/304757

According to this article they charged him with manufacture and possession of a destructive device.

From reading that it appears that the device was designed to be deadly only to the person setting it off. Probably made to kill himself.

MTT TL · February 22, 2012, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Federal charges, eh? It's possible that the firearm he manufactured is a SBS or SBR. There's a few other possibilities, including that he's a prohibited person.

MTT TL, some people who are "crazy" are quite functional and rational in areas other than that of their illness.

I agree, although that does not seem the case here. His depression seems to have interfered with his ability to have a "normal" life.

He was also carrying on campus which is against the rules, as well as trespassing.

Brian Pfleuger · February 22, 2012, 05:26 PM

The man needs help, not jail. Sometimes our system is really frigged up.

Glenn E. Meyer · February 22, 2012, 05:58 PM

Wait to see what happens. Competent defense and experts could handle this, it would seem.

However, being mentally ill is not sufficient - you have to meet precise standards for such a defense. Don't know the federal rules - probably easy to find.

Typically:

1. Know right from wrong.
2. Be aware of the consequences of action.

There are other and different versions.

johnbt · February 23, 2012, 07:10 PM

Being a vet since 1995 didn't keep him from piling up convictions.

He has been convicted of public intoxication, DUI and destruction of property between 2006 and 2010.

But who knows how many breaks he's been given already by the system and the local cops. Maybe they just finally got tired of his way of doing things. I know they're tired of cops being killed in Blacksburg and Montgomery County. The last one was in December, so I imagine they take a very dim view of disturbed people with guns on campus.

John
VPI Class of '72

johnbt · February 23, 2012, 07:14 PM

http://m.roanoke.com/mapp/story.aspx?arcID=304757

In his backpack he had "a crude, homemade gun fashioned from a piece of steel pipe, a shotgun shell and a nail rigged as a firing pin."

kraigwy · February 24, 2012, 11:41 AM

No (fed law) about making a gun for your own use, Legal gun that it.

Now if it was a smooth bore pipe to use shotgun shells, under federal law, wouldn't it have to be a certain length, w/18 inch barrel.

If it fit in his back pack, then it seems to me it would have been an illegal or sawed off shotgun.

Wasn't there, just guessing.

Brings up another point. The FBI runs the Hazardous Device School at Huntsville AL. This is the only civilian LE bomb disposal school in the US.

One of the things they taught us, was how to make a water cannon, which consist of noting but a short piece of pipe with an end cap, there was a hole in the end cap for the fuse/wire, and a 12 gage shell was fired in the pipe. It was a 12 gage shell full of BP and water is poured down the barrel held in with a proteolytic (rubber).

How is that any different then what this guy did?

johnbt · February 24, 2012, 10:05 PM

According to today's Washington Post lead editorial, the pipe was 8 inches long.

I need to find the link to this. May I write a new headline for the editorial?

WASHINGTON POST SUPPORTS CONCEALED CARRY WITHOUT A LICENSE because he wasn't hurting anybody.

Okay, here it is

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...YWR_story.html

"Virginia originally charged Mr. Duvall with carrying a concealed weapon without a license — a misdemeanor that carries a possible 12-month sentence and $2,500 fine. Even this charge seems uncalled for, given the circumstances and the fact that Mr. Duvall never threatened or attempted to harm anyone else"

**44 AMP** · February 24, 2012, 10:30 PM

Quote:

According to today's Washington Post lead editorial, the pipe was 8 inches long.

OK, that would be it, then. He made a "sawed off shotgun". The fact that it was a zip gun (or something out of the FM on improvised weapons) just means it is a lot cruder than a hack-sawed Remington. Still a sawed off shotgun, by virtue of its size, smooth bore, and taking a shotgun shell. NFA category weapon. Clearly.

Now, as to his mental state, depression isn't going to be remotely usable. In fact, I have never heard of using the insanity defense for ANY "posession" charge. I guess you would have to be able to proove that he "knew" it was against the law to have it, but didn't "understand" what illegal meant?

I mean, how many times have we all heard that ignorance of the law is no exuse? You not knowing owning X is illegal does nothing to change the fact that you own X and it is illegal. Sane or insane, if they proove you own it, and proove it is illegal, you're guilty. Slam dunk.

Now, not knowing its illegal (or perhaps being insane) might have an effect on the penalty applied to the conviction, but you will be convicted.

Willie Sutton · February 24, 2012, 10:47 PM

"How is that any different then what this guy did?"

The fact that "Law Enforcement" can break the law anytime they like and that "we the people" cannot?

Willie

.

ScottRiqui · February 24, 2012, 10:57 PM

Quote:

One of the things they taught us, was how to make a water cannon, which consist of noting but a short piece of pipe with an end cap, there was a hole in the end cap for the fuse/wire, and a 12 gage shell was fired in the pipe. It was a 12 gage shell full of BP and water is poured down the barrel held in with a proteolytic (rubber).

How is that any different then what this guy did?

Well, if I were a lawyer trying to defend the practice of making a "water cannon" of the type you described, I'd probably start off by arguing that the slug of water isn't a "projectile" under the ATF rules, which would mean that the water cannon isn't a "firearm" by their definitions.

Of course, and obvious problem with my idea is that with a pipe and a shotgun shell full of blackpowder, there would be nothing keeping you from loading the pipe with gravel or something similar, instead of water.

m&p45acp10+1 · February 25, 2012, 10:55 AM

I am thinking that in order for an insanity plea the defendant would have to have been mentaly adjudicated (sp?) at the time he was found in pessesion of the said device. The fact that he volintarily surrendered himself for psyciatric evaluation, and was released on his own accord without being court ordered to a state mental isntitution will kill any attempts for an insanity plea.

Also if he does give a plea of insainity and the cour accepts it. He then has surrendered his 2nd amendment rights anyway.

Now if he had been on some type of medication that he was having a bad reaction to there would be a temporary insanity plea. As far as if he had not been, then went to seek help, and showed signs of improvement while taking medication, and showed to be stable enough to be released he may have a defense.

On a side note. I have seen veterans turned away from VA care that stated they were suicidal, and wanted to die. (I was standing right next to them when they said it, and were turned away. I had to take them to the emergency room of a hospital, and have a doctor call the judge who then issued a court order for them to be treated.)

He does have some things he can use as a defense if he has a good attorney. Though it will take some doing, and a symapthetic jury. I am also sure a mental competence test will be doen before any hearing.

Brian Pfleuger · February 25, 2012, 01:10 PM

What ever happened to discretion?

How about the guy was desperate, nearly killed himself, gave no indication of wanting or attempting to hurt anyone else, we get him help and the problem is solved?

If he had almost killed himself with Tylenol, shall we nail him to the wall because "it is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with it's labeling."?

How about the next guy who contemplates calling the hotline and then remembers this story and figures, "Oh, hell no. I'm better off dead."?

I lose more hope for our future every day.

**44 AMP** · February 25, 2012, 02:07 PM

While Suicide is seldom a crime (other than in the eyes of the church, etc.) simply because there is no living perpatrator to prosecute, attempted suicide is a crime in many jurisdictions.

And it always involves one's mental state. Generally, forced help is the penalty for that particular crime, rather than jail time.

But that is a different issue than making and posessing an illegal firearm.

One is not a prohibited person due to mental state until adjudicated one through due process. Based on that the information in hand so far, the charge must be "manufacturing and possession of an NFA weapon" without proper prior govt approval.

And for that, I don't see how any mental state defintion would be involved.

yes, the poor guy is in a bad way. He needs help more than jail. One would hope the legal system will take that into account. But it doesn't change the fact that he broke the law.

dogtown tom · February 26, 2012, 04:57 PM

Quote:

kraigwy .....Brings up another point. The FBI runs the Hazardous Device School at Huntsville AL. This is the only civilian LE bomb disposal school in the US.

One of the things they taught us, was how to make a water cannon, which consist of noting but a short piece of pipe with an end cap, there was a hole in the end cap for the fuse/wire, and a 12 gage shell was fired in the pipe. It was a 12 gage shell full of BP and water is poured down the barrel held in with a proteolytic (rubber).

How is that any different then what this guy did?

Seriously?
It's no different than LE having LEGAL access to short barreled rifles, shotguns machine guns, destructive devises, etc. without each officer having to obtain a tax stamp for those items.....its an authorized official use.
Federal law clearly exempts LE & military from certain aspects of the National Firearms Act.....this is why LE can get post '86 machine guns when civilians cannot.

johnbt · February 28, 2012, 04:34 PM

"What ever happened to discretion?"

They saved his life (according to him), got him off the street (and off the Tech campus where'd he been roaming around armed for a week) and got some leverage on him to get him into treatment.

So now the update.

From today's Washington Post, page B1.

Under an agreement reached in federal court Monday, he will avoid gun charges if he completes court-madated counseling. It seems there's this new thing called "Verterans Treatment Court." If he completes the program the charges will be dropped.

This is the first felony case referred to the vets treatment court, which is modeled after drug treatment courts. He has to show up in court monthly for 6 months to update his progress and then the federal charges can be dropped.

The state charges were dropped some time ago because the feds wanted the case.

Isn't this what everybody wanted, for the man to get treatment? Not a suggestion to get treatment, but ordered to get it?

MTT TL · February 28, 2012, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Veterans Treatment Court

I had not even heard of this till today. They need to step very carefully with this as the potential for abuse is awful; however I can't fault the idea as it seems an apt solution in cases... just like this one.

The upside seems tremendous.

http://www.blogs.va.gov/VAntage/2018...atment-courts/

Quote:

Isn't this what everybody wanted, for the man to get treatment? Not a suggestion to get treatment, but ordered to get it?

I don't know what the recidivism rate is but I wish him luck with his issues. Since his problems appears chronic he will need it.

Brian Pfleuger · February 28, 2012, 05:31 PM

Sounds like a fair solution.

B.N.Real · February 28, 2012, 06:53 PM

The fact that the guy was going to commit suicide is important.

He needs psychiatric help.

If putting him in jail for a year or two saves his life because he gets treatment,I say jail him.

Otherwise he could go off and kill your family.

Think of this guy as already dead and you'll understand that everyday he's lived after the attempt is a good one-in jail or not.

He needs help and he should be forced to get it.

There is no freedom in killing yourself or someone else God forbid because you were messed up in the head.

February 22, 2012, 11:19 AM	#4
Don H Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2000 Location: SLC,Utah Posts: 2,704	Federal charges, eh? It's possible that the firearm he manufactured is a SBS or SBR. There's a few other possibilities, including that he's a prohibited person. MTT TL, some people who are "crazy" are quite functional and rational in areas other than that of their illness. __________________ Don http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/forum/

February 22, 2012, 05:26 PM	#7
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	The man needs help, not jail. Sometimes our system is really frigged up. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

February 22, 2012, 05:58 PM	#8
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Wait to see what happens. Competent defense and experts could handle this, it would seem. However, being mentally ill is not sufficient - you have to meet precise standards for such a defense. Don't know the federal rules - probably easy to find. Typically: 1. Know right from wrong. 2. Be aware of the consequences of action. There are other and different versions. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

February 24, 2012, 11:41 AM	#11
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	No (fed law) about making a gun for your own use, Legal gun that it. Now if it was a smooth bore pipe to use shotgun shells, under federal law, wouldn't it have to be a certain length, w/18 inch barrel. If it fit in his back pack, then it seems to me it would have been an illegal or sawed off shotgun. Wasn't there, just guessing. Brings up another point. The FBI runs the Hazardous Device School at Huntsville AL. This is the only civilian LE bomb disposal school in the US. One of the things they taught us, was how to make a water cannon, which consist of noting but a short piece of pipe with an end cap, there was a hole in the end cap for the fuse/wire, and a 12 gage shell was fired in the pipe. It was a 12 gage shell full of BP and water is poured down the barrel held in with a proteolytic (rubber). How is that any different then what this guy did? __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

February 25, 2012, 10:55 AM	#16
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I am thinking that in order for an insanity plea the defendant would have to have been mentaly adjudicated (sp?) at the time he was found in pessesion of the said device. The fact that he volintarily surrendered himself for psyciatric evaluation, and was released on his own accord without being court ordered to a state mental isntitution will kill any attempts for an insanity plea. Also if he does give a plea of insainity and the cour accepts it. He then has surrendered his 2nd amendment rights anyway. Now if he had been on some type of medication that he was having a bad reaction to there would be a temporary insanity plea. As far as if he had not been, then went to seek help, and showed signs of improvement while taking medication, and showed to be stable enough to be released he may have a defense. On a side note. I have seen veterans turned away from VA care that stated they were suicidal, and wanted to die. (I was standing right next to them when they said it, and were turned away. I had to take them to the emergency room of a hospital, and have a doctor call the judge who then issued a court order for them to be treated.) He does have some things he can use as a defense if he has a good attorney. Though it will take some doing, and a symapthetic jury. I am also sure a mental competence test will be doen before any hearing. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you. Last edited by m&p45acp10+1; February 25, 2012 at 11:03 AM.

February 22, 2012, 08:36 AM	#2
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,458	I don't understand the charges. It is legal for anyone who is not a prohibited person to make ("manufacture") a firearm for their own, personal use. Since that is not illegal, how can they charge him for it?

February 22, 2012, 09:20 AM	#3
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	State Law likely is the issue. Can't say what the law is there, but if it's like NJ, you need a license to manufacture a firearm, even if for personal use. Federal Law might be OK with it, but under State Law it might be a criminal act. Willie .

February 22, 2012, 01:30 PM	#5
vranasaurus Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,184	http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/304757 According to this article they charged him with manufacture and possession of a destructive device. From reading that it appears that the device was designed to be deadly only to the person setting it off. Probably made to kill himself.

February 23, 2012, 07:10 PM	#9
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	Being a vet since 1995 didn't keep him from piling up convictions. He has been convicted of public intoxication, DUI and destruction of property between 2006 and 2010. But who knows how many breaks he's been given already by the system and the local cops. Maybe they just finally got tired of his way of doing things. I know they're tired of cops being killed in Blacksburg and Montgomery County. The last one was in December, so I imagine they take a very dim view of disturbed people with guns on campus. John VPI Class of '72

February 23, 2012, 07:14 PM	#10
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	http://m.roanoke.com/mapp/story.aspx?arcID=304757 In his backpack he had "a crude, homemade gun fashioned from a piece of steel pipe, a shotgun shell and a nail rigged as a firing pin."

February 24, 2012, 10:05 PM	#12
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	According to today's Washington Post lead editorial, the pipe was 8 inches long. I need to find the link to this. May I write a new headline for the editorial? WASHINGTON POST SUPPORTS CONCEALED CARRY WITHOUT A LICENSE because he wasn't hurting anybody. Okay, here it is http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...YWR_story.html "Virginia originally charged Mr. Duvall with carrying a concealed weapon without a license — a misdemeanor that carries a possible 12-month sentence and $2,500 fine. Even this charge seems uncalled for, given the circumstances and the fact that Mr. Duvall never threatened or attempted to harm anyone else"

February 24, 2012, 10:47 PM	#14
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	"How is that any different then what this guy did?" The fact that "Law Enforcement" can break the law anytime they like and that "we the people" cannot? Willie .

February 25, 2012, 01:10 PM	#17
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	What ever happened to discretion? How about the guy was desperate, nearly killed himself, gave no indication of wanting or attempting to hurt anyone else, we get him help and the problem is solved? If he had almost killed himself with Tylenol, shall we nail him to the wall because "it is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with it's labeling."? How about the next guy who contemplates calling the hotline and then remembers this story and figures, "Oh, hell no. I'm better off dead."? I lose more hope for our future every day.

February 25, 2012, 02:07 PM	#18
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,811	While Suicide is seldom a crime (other than in the eyes of the church, etc.) simply because there is no living perpatrator to prosecute, attempted suicide is a crime in many jurisdictions. And it always involves one's mental state. Generally, forced help is the penalty for that particular crime, rather than jail time. But that is a different issue than making and posessing an illegal firearm. One is not a prohibited person due to mental state until adjudicated one through due process. Based on that the information in hand so far, the charge must be "manufacturing and possession of an NFA weapon" without proper prior govt approval. And for that, I don't see how any mental state defintion would be involved. yes, the poor guy is in a bad way. He needs help more than jail. One would hope the legal system will take that into account. But it doesn't change the fact that he broke the law. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 28, 2012, 04:34 PM	#20
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	"What ever happened to discretion?" They saved his life (according to him), got him off the street (and off the Tech campus where'd he been roaming around armed for a week) and got some leverage on him to get him into treatment. So now the update. From today's Washington Post, page B1. Under an agreement reached in federal court Monday, he will avoid gun charges if he completes court-madated counseling. It seems there's this new thing called "Verterans Treatment Court." If he completes the program the charges will be dropped. This is the first felony case referred to the vets treatment court, which is modeled after drug treatment courts. He has to show up in court monthly for 6 months to update his progress and then the federal charges can be dropped. The state charges were dropped some time ago because the feds wanted the case. Isn't this what everybody wanted, for the man to get treatment? Not a suggestion to get treatment, but ordered to get it?

February 28, 2012, 05:31 PM	#22
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Sounds like a fair solution.

February 28, 2012, 06:53 PM	#23
B.N.Real Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Posts: 4,092	The fact that the guy was going to commit suicide is important. He needs psychiatric help. If putting him in jail for a year or two saves his life because he gets treatment,I say jail him. Otherwise he could go off and kill your family. Think of this guy as already dead and you'll understand that everyday he's lived after the attempt is a good one-in jail or not. He needs help and he should be forced to get it. There is no freedom in killing yourself or someone else God forbid because you were messed up in the head.

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